Last Neanderthals Podcast
Stories that shape futures. Last Neanderthals is a podcast dedicated to learning, evolving and becoming our best selves. Evolve with us!
Last Neanderthals Podcast
Why Men and Women are More Divided than Ever | Mila Stricevic
Have we, as a society, misconstrued the essence of masculinity and feminism? Mila Stricevic joins us in an enriching dialogue that uncovers the need to redefine and understand these concepts amidst the generational divides of Gen Z. We're not just talking about abstract concepts; we're probing the concrete impact these issues have on our daily lives. From the influence of social media on our views to the importance of empathy in healing the widening gender rift, this episode promises a fresh perspective on the cultural and political landscape shaping young minds today.
Evolve With Us!
Last Neanderthals Socials
YouTube: Last Neanderthals Podcast
Instagram: @lastneanderthals
Twitter: @lstneanderthals
TikTok: @Lastneanderthals
Spotify: Last Neanderthals Podcast
Apple Podcasts: Last Neanderthals Podcast
Khushal’s Socials
Instagram: @khushal_yousafzai
LinkedIn: @khushal_yousafzai
Wali’s Socials:
Instagram: @walikhanah
So you published an article on masculinity and the divide between men and women in Gen Z.
Speaker 2:So this recent polarisation? Where do you think this comes from?
Speaker 3:It's so easy to blame social media for everything, but I really do. I can't unlink the fact that this is happening at the same time as we are more and more on our phones and scrolling through social media. I do definitely think that feminism is misunderstood. There's always a need for feminism, you know. I don't know if it will ever get to a point where it's like completely unnecessary.
Speaker 2:Do you think it could be possible to have a point in time where we are just completely equal as men and women?
Speaker 3:I want us to eventually get to a place, but I just think that there's lots of complicated factors that go into it.
Speaker 2:What do you think about male privilege? Does male privilege exist? Does it not exist?
Speaker 3:Like, like. Feminism encompasses so many different things, and people's idea of what feminism is changes a lot.
Speaker 1:And also feminism in America is very different to feminism in the UK than to feminism in Africa and in Pakistan.
Speaker 3:It's so important to appreciate that different countries and cultures in the UK then to feminism in Africa and in Pakistan. It's so important to appreciate that different countries and cultures will need something different from feminist activism. It's not all just one homogenous idea.
Speaker 2:How do we tackle the growing division? I've not seen people online be so divided in terms of gender as I have right now.
Speaker 3:I think we need to get offline and I just think we need to be having conversations, definitely with empathy.
Speaker 1:Mila, we always end our podcast on the deep end. What would you want written on your tombstone?
Speaker 3:I have not even thought about what would I want written on my tombstone.
Speaker 1:In today's episode we spoke to Mila Strixević. Mila is a very good friend of mine who is currently studying at King's College London. She's doing a degree in religion politics and society. In our conversation we spoke about feminism and the harms of social media. We hope you find this conversation as insightful as we did. Thank you so much for listening. Speaking of political chats you spoke to Professor Duffy.
Speaker 3:Yes, I did, professor Campbell.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very smart people. I've read on them you guys talked about. So you published an article on masculinity and the divide between men and women in Gen Z. Would you like to tell us more about that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was.
Speaker 3:So it wasn't my original research.
Speaker 3:It was an interview with Professor Duffy from the Policy Institute and Professor Campbell from the Institute for Global Women's Leadership, and their research was looking at the polarization, or the growing polarization between, especially young men and women over masculinity, feminism, you know, do we need feminism anymore?
Speaker 3:And their research kind of found that within our age demographic and I think they were specifically looking at sort of 16 to 25 year olds when they said Gen Z there's a growing divide between men and women over um, like whether masculinity is, like a helpful term, you know, toxic masculinity. Do we need feminism? Has it done more harm than good? And so the research was interesting because that's not that common in generations to be so divided, and it's not really just on feminism. Like other financial times, um research has found that men and women are growing politically more apart. So women tend to vote more um liberally, like more for labor, where there's young men are voting more for conservative and more um right-wing parties, which is interesting because it's just it's not so common in generations yeah, I wonder what like variables affect these decisions.
Speaker 1:Is it our biology, or is it more like social behavior, like more, more of our environment?
Speaker 3:I mean I yeah, I don't see how you could say that it's biology, because this is such a new like phenomenon that within a generation it's kind of growing apart, although they did caveat by saying, okay, it is significant in that men and women are growing, but it's not. It's not that like. It's not like literally all women think one thing and all men in gen in our generation think another. So you have to be a bit careful about you know, generalizing all men and women have you noticed this type of divide in your own life as well?
Speaker 2:or do you think this is just the study, is just an internet type of thing.
Speaker 3:I find it actually quite difficult. It was I was thinking about this because, on the one hand, I guess we all know, yeah, online, people like Andrew Tate, you know they're stirring the pot and they, you know, are kind of there's, there's this idea that like men don't think that feminism is necessary anymore. But in my own life, at university, for example, I don't really surround myself with like men that would think that way. I, you know, if somebody said something really misogynistic to me, I'd be okay, I don't want to be friends with them anymore.
Speaker 3:So, it is kind of a weird like they disconnect, where you kind of know that some people think this way but in my own life I don't see it so much really. See it like online, you know if I like one, or on tiktok if I'm scrolling and I see one like red pill.
Speaker 3:You know video and I view it then a hundred more are gonna pop up and um, so I definitely see it online, but in real life you don't. I don't know if you guys like feel the same way, but I don't feel like I actually hear that many people just out and out talking about it yeah, I feel like there are less echo chambers in real life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like online, you just get go in a rabbit hole because the algorithm feeds you what you want and I wonder to what extent you know, is that affecting our critical thinking? Because if you're just getting one perspective whether it's from a toxic, you know whether it's toxic masculinity or some other you know harmful ideology that people are constantly feeding you and although you might not be, let's say, you might be a quite open-minded person, but because you are receiving is such a high quantity that it just ends up influencing you in some shape or form without you even realizing, especially if you're young and impressionable mind yeah, no, definitely.
Speaker 3:And also, if you're kind of taking in all of these videos but not actually talking about it to anyone, I think that's maybe why the disconnect is there is because people see these videos in their own, you know, in their home or on the bus home from uni or whatever, and they're scrolling and you're taking all this kind of like slightly misogynistic ideas or things that, like, women are to blame for, um, I don't know bad things that are happening in young men's lives and but you're not talking about it with anyone else. And then there's this polarization that it's hard like I can't, young women can't see or they don't hear it like out loud. You know from other people.
Speaker 3:And I think that's why it's so important to talk about it. You know, on podcasts or like on university campuses, like have young men and women like just talking about these issues, because I think sometimes, like men maybe just don't understand, like just because legally there might be like legal, for example, the wage gap comes up so much where, okay, yeah, legally men and women have to be paid the same, but that's not all misogyny. That's that is not the only thing, that when young women experience, but if you're not talking to women about their actual experiences in real life, then you just maybe you just wouldn't know yeah, like there's safety outside that.
Speaker 1:One survey that showed that showed that 97 percent of women in uk have experienced some sort of harassment, like things, of things like that, right, where men they don't really. I mean, their problems are different. I'm not saying they don't have problems, but they're not aware of the problems women might be going through and like where they a workplace as well. For example, um, one of my friend, uh friend, who works in a in this law firm, uh, so she gets asked a question like you know, are you gonna get married or you're pregnant? You know, are you gonna have kids? And you know how is that gonna work, are you gonna be attending work?
Speaker 1:And a lot of women don't get hired because of these reasons. Yeah, on paper it's not like, uh, what you call it, it's not misogyny, but it's still patriarchy in a way. Like it's, you know, you get, you get what I'm saying like it's not like, oh, they're being, it's like I don't know how to quite word it it's although, although in terms of flow, yeah, they might still be getting paid the same, but these factors do, um, they do hinder women in getting a lot of opportunities because factors like this companies take into mind because they're all about profit, especially in a capitalistic economy where it's all about profit, right, and if women are going to miss six months of work or more than that, uh, then it's they did. They will end up hiring less women for these reasons, without any compensation yeah, definitely.
Speaker 3:I mean, I guess it's that kind of insidious, it's like no one's saying it out and out to your face this is the reason why you're not getting hired, but at the same time, it's that unconscious, as you say, well, a woman of a certain age might potentially get pregnant. So therefore, um yeah, we won't hire you. That is like. One part of the wage gap is that women take more time off of work, typically if they have children, and so they're not picking up as many shifts or they're not progressing in the same way that men their age would progress who aren't having to take time off work. So all of these factors are, um, yeah, they're, they're part of it, and you maybe just wouldn't necessarily see that unless you were taking the time to, uh, talk to women and, you know, read up more yourself on it so this recent polarization that you mentioned in the article, where do you think this comes from?
Speaker 3:um, I don't know, I feel like it's so easy to blame social media for everything, but I really do feel that I I just I can't unlink the fact that this kind of polarization is happening at the same time as we are more and more on this anxiety, especially for young men and and women. But, like I'm thinking around the age of 14, 15, like I know, my views were always changing. I mean, I'm sure that I've said stuff when I was like 14 that I would cringe at now, because you're kind of exploring, like your, your thoughts about the world and and that's like the perfect age. You're kind of exploring, like your, your thoughts about the world, and that's like the perfect age. You're a bit stressed about what, what's the world going to look like for me, what's my future going to be like?
Speaker 3:And then people come along that kind of offer this solution to you, that that, um, these problems are not your fault. Uh, they're the, they're the problems of other people, and feminism is is ruining things for you, and and, uh, and that's kind of a maybe more palatable than um, like other, um, other problems, like maybe more structurally. I'm not saying that men should be blaming themselves, but, um, I do think that it's just. It's very easy because women are right there, you know, in the classrooms with you, so it's pretty easy to just blame girls that are around you yeah, I think that's a good point.
Speaker 2:I think we see this like all throughout society now, where people are looking for other people to blame instead of taking a look at themselves first and see, like what can I do to myself? Maybe do a bit of self improvement or whatever. It's like it's all that guy's fault and if he wasn't here I'd be doing so well. It's like how anti-immigration people it's all the immigrants fault if they weren't here like the country would be in a great place. I think it's quite similar to that. But I personally think another big issue is as well that men and women don't really try and understand each other and, like men don't try and see the world from women's perspective and women don't try and understand the world from men's perspective as well. And I think this is why you have a lot of these young men getting so frustrated and like a bit disillusioned with the world, because it I think there is.
Speaker 2:There is a case to be made that women do want men to like see the world how they see it, and they get confused when that's not the case, and then vice versa, the same for men men want women to see the world how they see it and when it doesn't happen, they're like why not? But I think the issue is, like you just need to understand each other first. Like we might not be exactly the same doesn't mean we're intrinsically not equal. We don't hold the same value. We might see the world differently because we are different. I think that's one key thing that's being lost now. Like men, women are different, like we're not exactly the same everyone knows that we have different chromosomes, but doesn't mean we're different in value. And doesn't mean like we should blame other people or hold them to account for our actions. Like let's just have dialogue and communicate and see how we can make the world a better place yeah, I totally agree with you and I think another I want to add to that.
Speaker 1:Another issue is lack of education as well. I don't think these men quite understand what feminism is. Feminism is about men and women having you know, uh, in like that inherent, what do you what?
Speaker 2:do you believe? What do you think?
Speaker 3:exactly as the woman here, yeah I mean, I guess I I do definitely think that feminism is understood, misunderstood. To me, it's about men and women, um, being perceived as equal. Um, the thing is, there's so many different aspects of feminism that it's kind of difficult to unpack into one sentence. It's, and at different stages of your life, it means obviously different things. It's, you know, you know, in the workplace, at home, just socially.
Speaker 3:I think that as you, as you, you know grow into a young woman, it's not wanting to be sexualized when you're walking down the street, but when you're a young girl, it's maybe feeling like you want to do the same things that young boys do, you know, having equal opportunities to go and do things like playing football, or, you know. That seems like such a silly example, but I remember when I was young and I was in a football um, I went, I used to go and play football after school and the women's team, um, or the girls team, we had a different coach, like every week, whereas the boys team was taken a lot more seriously. And you know why is that? Why isn't, um, the same amount of money being poured into like women's football as it is to men's? And now I do think that things are changing. But it's just about feeling like you men and women are given equal opportunities to achieve like success in their life and of course that's different at different stages in different contexts.
Speaker 3:But I do think it's misunderstood because a lot of young men think that it's somehow that women want to literally completely, you know dominate and they want men to feel terrible about themselves. And that's just not what it is and it feels ignorant to me when young men say this, especially people like Andrew Tate that capitalize off of that. I mean, he just wants to make money. You know people like that and I don't I don't take what they say seriously. But then a lot of young boys, especially like you know, around 14, 15, when you're kind of more impressionable, you do start to hear these kind of subconscious or you know these messages from people um like that, these the red pill youtubers, as we've been, as we've been saying, and um take it in, and then of course that makes you blame feminism for everything and kind of misunderstand it yeah, I think, like these young boys and these young men, they they do feel like a bit disillusioned with society anyway, a bit like they're outcasts and they're not fitting in.
Speaker 2:And then these men, these influencers, these red pill guys, they capitalize on that, like you said. So I think if there is more communication to understand these young men and these boys first, instead of like ridiculing them for having questions and like thinking certain things, I think it would go a long way. Because, like in society now, it's almost if you don't think a certain way, people are like shocked and it's like, oh my god, how could you even think that? And no one wants to have that conversation. But the best way to combat stuff like that is to actually have the conversation, understand where they're coming from and then change their mind by giving like rational arguments and stuff.
Speaker 2:Even if someone was like being islamophobic or racist to us, I wouldn't just like ridicule them and say what are you talking about? I'd have a conversation and say, no, like this is my perspective on it and hopefully, if they're not just a malicious person, if they don't have bad intent, they'll realize that. And I don't think a lot of these boys are these people who are being like almost brainwashed by these red pill content creators. They're just young men looking for somewhere to fit in and for the world to understand them and unfortunately, these like predators. That's what they are.
Speaker 3:These people like fresh and fit and stuff capitalize on that yeah, I mean it's, in some ways it feels a bit frustrating because I want to say, to like lots of young men that feel this way, disillusioned, like you know, we're on the same team almost. You know young men that feel, for example, like loneliness was a big thing, this like epidemic of young people feeling lonely, and it's not just young men that feel lonely, it's young women too. But like young men not feeling like they can express their emotions, um, that's, that's a product, that's not something that, like feminists want. They, they're not feminists, don't want men to be like repressed emotionally. That doesn't benefit anyone, you know. And so these people like Fresh and Fit or Andrew Tate, that kind of say your problems are, are because of feminists and they're rising up and they don't. You know, whatever they say, it's, it's not, it's not based in reality. You know, young women do not want, um, young men to be facing these problems of of loneliness, of like repressed emotion. It's not, it doesn't serve anyone.
Speaker 1:It's what I would say yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree more. And another issue I have with that narrative that these red pill youtubers and, you know, these um figures like andrew tate, like you know, promote, is that they they treat feminism and as a monolithic term, it's like, and they generalize and oversimplify a lot. They may have seen issues in their culture and their upbringing where you know, they may have seen some aspects in feminism that you know what we need a discussion about, rather than demonizing the women, which is, you said, is the wrong approach. Right to conversation, yes, you can discuss that, but instead you demonize the, the word, right, the word and the whole. Basically, uh, you polarize the men and women further and instead of understanding what feminism truly is like, for example, you look at afghanistan, right, 4.3 million girls are out of school. So for anyone to say that feminism isn't, and instead of understanding what feminism truly is like, for example, you look at Afghanistan, right, 4.3 million girls are out of school.
Speaker 1:So for anyone to say that feminism isn't needed and we that we shouldn't, oh, there's no need to, no longer need to empower women and speak for their equal rights, right? You must be out of your mind. You know, there are many societies and many places where women can't work, they don't have access to education, they don't have any job prospects. It's like we can't ignore that. We can't just look at the little sample he might be collecting, you know, and maybe they are right in their criticism, but again it's how they go about. Number one, demonizing women. And number two, how oversimplify they simplify the problem.
Speaker 3:They oversimplify the problem, which is only more damaging to to say that because, oh, we don't need feminism in the uk, or or when women and men are seen as equal in the us, even though, like okay, I don't believe necessarily that. But to then say, well, we don't need feminism at all. As you say, like there's so many places where where women and men are not equal and, um, I don't even want to say it's just about like women, because I do understand that there's problems that men face as well. I just think, like gender equally, like across the board, there's places where men and women need help. And to say like, oh well, it's all fixed in this country, so therefore we don't need it anymore. To me it just yeah, it doesn't feel like a compassionate take at all it doesn't feel like a compassionate take at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, the same logic does not make sense in any kind of human rights policies Because if like, okay, let's say, your country managed to, let's say, achieve a lot of equality, like equality in terms of financial equality, oh, we're at a good level now we don't need it anymore. What, Like? It doesn't make any sense. No, we have to maintain it. Yes, if the pay gap and the women, women rights are a lot more in the western societies now, you can't just say, although there's no longer need for feminism I do think like there's always a need for feminism.
Speaker 2:You know, I don't know if it will ever get to a point where it's like completely unnecessary yeah, I think all all relationships is just you need to put an effort in always for it to be maintained at a healthy level. And this is just the relationship. It's dynamics between men, women, women, women, men, men, like the whole world. So I think that is fair. But like do you think it could be possible to have a situation, a point in time, where we are just completely equal as men and women? There's no rights that men have that women don't have.
Speaker 3:There's no like fear that women need to have in society I mean, you know, of course I hope so, um, but I just I'm not, I don't know, I just I don't see like how at the moment, but like, of course, like I'm, I do think that, like I want us to eventually get to a place, but I just think that there's lots of complicated factors that go into it.
Speaker 3:It's, um, like patriarchy doesn't seem to be like I mean, it's still very much present right now. You know, um, like even people like uh, like andrew tate, who's saying you know all this stuff, I mean he's, he's being uh charged with like sex trafficking, you know assault, uh, and I think how can we take this person seriously when he's saying that there's this myth of like patriarchy and all this, when this is the very thing he's upholding? So I don't know, it's hard for me to say, okay, yeah, one day we'll get to a point where men and women will be equal. I do think we need to just be having more conversations about it, unless on the phone, you know, scrolling through tiktok yeah I saw that the government are thinking about banning phones for under 16, so like banning the sale of smartphones.
Speaker 3:I don't know what you guys think about that, but I think it would be a good starting point it's a bit controversial, I guess an idea but that is interesting, because how do you implement that?
Speaker 2:or if, like a parent, buys someone a phone and then gives it to them, do the police arrest 15 year olds with phones on the street I'm not sure.
Speaker 3:I'm not sure that's gonna happen, but I do think like I don't know. I mean, there's a reason why all of these like tech billionaires don't let their kids have smartphones. You know, um, who was it that invented the iphone? Tim cook uh, steve, steve jobs, steve jobs yeah, well, they all say like they don't let their children like have iphones because they know like it's so addictive and like the person that invented the refresh button on twitter like came out and said he regretted it.
Speaker 2:Yeah and the guy who made the unlimited scroll. You know how you can keep scrolling forever. You'd have to. You used to have to press next page but, now on stuff you can just scroll forever, the guy who made? That is like oh sorry guys yeah, even the 4chan guys.
Speaker 1:They regretted really a lot of things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah I think if I had kids I wouldn't let them on social media. But I feel like a phone just how unsafe everything is at the moment like at least some sort of brick phone or something.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would give them brick phone. Yeah well, they didn't specify this would be smartphones so I think brick phones are okay, but no like bring them back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we need to make brick phones cool again. Yeah, you know 100.
Speaker 1:I like that. I like that tagline. What I wanted to ask also was what is toxic masculinity?
Speaker 3:um, that's a good question. I don't feel like I'm the right person to answer that, um, but but I guess toxic masculinity to me is, um, it's kind of what we've been talking about, isn't it? It's like people that are these, like alpha male, they think that, like men need to be no emotion, they need to be. They're like the top, you know, the top people over women, that women are subordinate. There's lots of things that go into toxic masculinity. I think maybe you're, I feel like you're probably better placed to tell me what you think what would you like to give us a take?
Speaker 1:what's toxic masculinity?
Speaker 2:I don't know. I feel like I think there is just like just toxic people in general. I don't know if it comes from masculinity. I feel like if that same person who's like got toxic masculinity if he was a woman, he'd probably be toxic as well. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:yeah, I get what you mean, but what?
Speaker 2:but maybe in a different way. I just let me think. See, I should have thought about this already. You go and you tell me what you.
Speaker 1:For me, it's like when there's a constant projection of insecurities and you never take accountability and you always blame women for your problems. If you, for example, someone, can't get a girlfriend, it's women's fault, not his fault. He's never looked into the mirror whether how he presents himself, um, so you're not in cell culture like that's I. I think it's toxic and I think it's just like what what's?
Speaker 2:what's that got to do with masculinity, though? Like that's what I don't understand about the term. Why is that toxic masculinity? Is it just because a man's men are doing it? Because I don't find that mass a masculine thing to do at all no, no, but it's like a mask.
Speaker 1:So when we talk about healthy masculinity, no, it's not a healthy masculine trait yeah, but I just don't find it as a masculine trait at all like, but it's because they think they're entitled, they think that all women should be liking them and it's women's for it. They can. You know what? Why, then, like? It's like this sense of entitlement, like why am I repeating myself? So they feel like how do I word this man?
Speaker 2:I think. I think that's a quite an important question to ask, maybe like why is it? Why are some actions specifically toxic masculinity?
Speaker 3:well, I mean, I think that the the the thing about toxic masculinity is like women don't tend to have these same uh, not to generalize, but definitely in our generation. Um, the reason why people talk about toxic masculinity, it's these like ideas that men should like, repress their emotions, that men need to go out and they need to be dominant and they need to be like all of these they need to attain for things that are just, are not that? Like that women don't tend to.
Speaker 2:I feel like that that repress your emotions. Thing that really makes sense is like something you'd say is toxic masculinity. But some of these other things, just I don't see why they're associated.
Speaker 1:So abusing, like for example, their strength right because, men are biologically stronger and if they were to misuse that power like you look at domestic violence, you know things of that nature would be then a toxic man, right like a toxic masculinity. The man has no control over his testosterone levels and you know I don't know.
Speaker 2:I don't know if that's toxic masculinity, though to me that's just a really bad human being the repressing the emotions thing. It's like that is considered like a masculine thing to do. Abusing people isn't considered a but because you're powerful you're physically, yeah, but that's just the biological, biologic reality.
Speaker 1:Biological reality to be like, men are generally more strong, stronger than women so they can say the same thing about emotions that men are generally like they repress emotions and they're less emotional, less empathetic. So then, is that they take it to an extreme?
Speaker 2:yeah, so it's a it's like a masculine thing to repress emotions and therefore it's a toxic masculine thing. It's not a masculine thing to like beat up your wife, for example. It's not. It might be masculine to be like big and strong.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not masculine, so it's toxic masculine, like it's, I think, but you're right like why are we assigning it to? Why are we bringing the term masculinity into it? Why? Don't we just call it toxic behaviour. That's a very good question and I'm struggling in some ways. It just needs more thinking.
Speaker 3:I think we've just kind of I do think we have to think that this is behaviours that have been perpetuated under patriarchy. So, for example, men Abusing their strength and feeling like they can, you know, like beat up women or like rape culture is perpetuated by patriarchy. These kind of ideas that men are dominant over women, emotions, repressing your emotions it's kind of something that's perpetuated by patriarchy, like that's kind of the toxic masculinity side of it or underestimating women, for example.
Speaker 1:Let's say if a woman was to come into politics or you know like what would be considered masculine industries, whether it's the they just look down upon. They're not treated as like. You know what, which. What value do you really bring Like? You're not a man, like you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that makes sense, like look at the police force.
Speaker 1:For example, in Pakistan, 2% of the Pakistani women sorry police force includes women. So most women like can't, basically they can't discuss their issues of like, sexual assault and such problems with male police officers. So it's a huge problem. And because women? Because because becoming a police officer is seen as a masculine thing, then women are excluded. They're like oh, you're a woman, you should just get married and wife and do your feminine things. It's bad to be a police officer. But then we have, because of that, we don't have support systems for a lot of victims that are women. So that would be an example. I think that can come on, uh, on the spot, uh, what would be in a society. But I don't like, I understand this thing very little.
Speaker 3:I think clearly we need to think more about this yeah, I mean, this was part of the research is toxic masculinity? Is it even really a helpful term, like lots of people think? Not really. Um, I think sometimes it seems to trivialize, like this term, toxic masculinity just trivializes issues that are really serious. Um, like it, you know the the this idea that, like, men perpetuate violence onto women, um, for example, like domestic violence or uh, like to say that this is like a product of toxic masculinity seems trivial to me. It doesn't seem like the right term to be using. I understand that, like, um, saying that that men have more repressed emotions. Maybe that seems like okay, that could be a toxic masculine trait. But I do think there's maybe an argument that toxic masculinity has become such a overused term that it's kind of meaningless now. And and also, like, if you're a young man and you're trying to figure out your identity and where you fit into the world and people are only talking about toxic masculinity, I could see that big feeling.
Speaker 3:Like I could see why young men would feel like frustrated or maybe confused about why masculinity always seems to be associated with, like talk, the word toxic yeah and maybe it's just not that helpful anymore to be describing if we really want to move forward and be, you know, educating um young men and young women together, maybe using terms like toxic masculinity. It just isn't that helpful because it sends off these. This idea of like masculinity is, um, I don't know, not a good thing, or I can understand why people would have that perception what?
Speaker 2:what do you think about? Uh, male privilege, because I've seen a lot of conversations like does male privilege exist? Does it not exist?
Speaker 3:um, I mean, there's no doubt that it exists. I think the experiences that, like, young men and women have are, like, different in many ways. You know, and sometimes I think that, like young men my age maybe and this is not to say that you know like, literally, life is way, way harder for all women. But I just think that there are certain experiences that young women have that young men will don't understand, and that's just because how can they? Because you're a man feeling safe walking down the street at night, young men, you would never understand what it's like to be a young woman and feel like you can't walk home from, um, I don't know, a night out with your, your, you know your girlfriends, because you, you feel like something you might be attacked or, um, something like that, uh, spaces that women can't enter. You know all this stuff with the garrett club. I don't know if you saw that in the news which is like a men's only club in london and it seems so um old.
Speaker 3:It seems so old-fashioned and kind of archaic that there's still spaces where women are just absolutely not allowed into because they're women. Um women going into the police force, and there's been quite a lot in the news with like kind of more senior female police officers coming out and saying that they faced a lot of misogyny and harassment. As a woman in male dominated spaces, that's definitely um something that's men don't experience as much like harassment. I wouldn't say in the in the workforce is definitely in the same way that women do yeah, I think you're right.
Speaker 2:I think undoubtedly, like unfortunately as well, when you're born as a boy, as a man, you do have a bit of a head start, you do have a leg up, which shouldn't be the case, but unfortunately it is, and I think it's important to realize that, especially in like the broader world, but even still in countries like the United Kingdom and United States, like you mentioned, things like harassment and I think a lot of men just don't think about that kind of stuff like when you are walking home at night and you don't have to worry as much some men still do worry, but you don't have to worry as much about being harassed or like, oh, is that man walking too close to me? Why is he walking on the same side of the road as me? Like these are genuine things that, like people have concerns about, women have concerns about, and we don't have to do that. We don't have to worry about.
Speaker 2:Oh, if I go into work, is my boss going to be weird with me? Is he going to flirt with me? I just want to do my job. They may seem like little things, but imagine this happening to you like every day, like over and over and over again. Eventually would get to a point where you'd be like what the fuck?
Speaker 3:yeah, I mean even smaller things, not just harassment, but like the way that, um, boys and girls are socialized differently, um and this also intersects with other things like race, um like, for example, you know, men, if they're being kind of assertive, it's like they're leaders and they're you know, uh, why those women tend to get called bossy, and that's even more so for, like, black women, for example, and it's just they're when you're young and you kind of experience these low level things and it's maybe harder to call out because it's not outright misogyny, like, but you can sense it, you know yeah, it's like, it's like hypocrisy, like we would be considered a healthy masculine trait, but if a woman does it, then, it's weird, or even like, let's say, it's like I feel like we just don't understand what masculinity and femininity even is like.
Speaker 1:For example, let's say you're gymming right and building your physique. That's seen as a masculine trait, right by many. But women should do the same thing. In my opinion. Every woman should keep fit. They should, you know, gain muscles. They should be healthy, right. So why are we just then ascribing that to uh to be a masculine trait and why do we like, let's say, a girl who's got like, uh, you know who's in, into bodybuilding and things like that? We call them a man and we like, kind, let's say, a girl who's got like a you know who's into bodybuilding and things like that? We call them a man and we kind of shame them for it, body shame them for it, right. And it's like we're really not helping ourselves with the labels, and maybe it's just. Maybe it's to do with a lack of discourse, or maybe we just need to go beyond labels, and I don't know what the answer is. What do you think?
Speaker 3:I don't know what the answer is. What do you think? I don't know what the answer is either. It's something I really have been thinking about a lot. Just, I think all these conversations about masculinity and femininity it does make me think about gender and like the importance that we place on our own gender and actually ascribing things as as masculine or feminine. Maybe it's just not that helpful. I don't know.
Speaker 3:I have been thinking about it a lot and I do feel a bit conflicted because, on the one hand, like I really do like being a woman and like I you know, like I like it, I definitely. But then, at the same time, maybe there's a case for you know well, it's not me renouncing being a woman but like I don't need to ascribe everything as either a feminine trait or a masculine trait, and that might be the way forward. There does seem to be some kind of I don't know like polarization at least, like, as you said, for example, that there's certain masculine traits where, if a woman does it, it's considered like unfeminine, and maybe we should just be going beyond that. It feels a bit outdated to be saying that women are too masculine for wanting to be muscular in the gym and like what does that even mean?
Speaker 1:you know, exactly they're just trying to be healthy, or like, let's say, for example, expressing emotions right, like, let's say, if I'm going through a very tough time, like I would call that person courageous, I won't say that's a feminine thing to do. If what is going through a tough time, yeah, you know, the studies show that women have more emotional support system. But I make it. Let's say, I make this like I. I I live in a society where this is considered as a feminine activity. For him to open up to me now, him as a man is gonna, he's gonna feel reluctant.
Speaker 1:So why are we assigning these good qualities to even the good qualities? I mean to femininity and masculinity? It's just a good quality. It takes courage to talk about your emotions. When you talk about your emotions, you gain more clarity and your mental health gets better. Freud says unexpressed emotions don't die. But when you assign that to femininity, and then people shame you all. Like you all, you should be more like a man. Now you're doing they're very good habits. Now you're restricting yourself from, for example, having emotional support systems and being able to depend on people around you. We're social animals. You can't do life alone. You need people around you. And if you're like oh, now you should be this masculine lone wolf, right, it's not helping the man or the women women, it's helping no one yeah, it's really interesting to me.
Speaker 3:I do find find it funny when we talk about men as being like unemotional, and I think that's definitely not true. We just express emotions very differently. Like women, maybe they have a bigger support system Generally speaking, like women tend to, you know, go to their friends for support and maybe we cry a bit more, a bit more, um, but men like it's not that they're not emotional, so like we need to be letting men like get their emotions out in a healthy way, because otherwise it turns to like anger and and that is obviously really it's not a good place to be in when you're just like, you know, angry because you've got these repressed emotions and the lone wolf thing. I mean that does not help anyone going out and being independent. We all need to have friends, we need support systems. We need, you know, like our family, if we're close to family, to be able to speak to them. Yeah, it's 100%.
Speaker 1:I learned that the very hard way, because almost losing my sister and then moving to a different country culture shock. I really didn't want to show anyone that I was feeling vulnerable and I was feeling lonely and I didn't like my new life here, you know, and I just bottled it all up and I was angry, like my escapism would be video games, I broke more than eight controllers and all of these things. And if, for example, like, thank God, because my dad was, you know, I could have these emotional conversation with him. But if he was like, stop, stop complaining, what have you got to complain about? Don't be, don't be a woman Like, don't, don't talk about your feelings and don't get all like, oh, I've got depression and oh, you're struggling mentally. If he said those things God forbid I would be still in a very dark place. But I had a good outlet. Well, I had good friends where I could just open up to them, cry to them that you know the trauma from my past are following me. I don't know what I'm doing. I need help. That's when my life started to change and I think that's a very courageous thing to do, because it's the harder thing to do.
Speaker 1:But if we just assign that to masculinity and femininity, then it just people just get lost in the. It's like. It's, like my dad says, a beautiful thing. It's like people are too concerned with, like, having labels and, like you know, they're too afraid of like these labels, like or like. For example, some men are like oh, I don't want to be, you know, I don't want to be called a feminist.
Speaker 1:My dad said it's okay, you don't have to call yourself a feminist, but act like one. Be respectful to women. You don't have to do anything like that, just be respectful to women. That's the most important thing be a kind human being. We don't need labels, we just need to be kind human beings. And I think in this world of polarization, conservatives, labels and right wing, left wing and it's just like this culture wars, I think it's just it's more damaging than it is useful. But then it's a bit of a double-edged sword, because we also need labels to uh, understand the world and make sense of the what we're experiencing in the world. So I don't know how we then deal with that, because at the same time one can say that how can you discuss such issues if you don't have labels?
Speaker 2:I think as an individual I don't care about labels, but when you're talking in a broader sense, you kind of have to use them, like I wouldn't care for someone to ascribe me as a feminist or not as a feminist, ascribe me as a feminist or not as a feminist, like it doesn't bother me in the slightest because I know internally what my opinions are and how I feel about things. Whether someone thinks I fit in a group or don't fit in a group, it doesn't bother me at all. But then when the whole world, or majority of the world, understands something, as this one term.
Speaker 3:You have to use that term to communicate with them in the correct way, I think yeah, I think the problem is like, as we said, these labels tend to become really broad and then sometimes it's difficult to know.
Speaker 3:Like feminism, I mean, encompasses so many different things, um, like intersectional feminism, and people talk about like first wave, second wave, third wave feminism, and you know, people's idea of what feminism is changes a lot. But you know, if somebody said to me I don't call myself a feminist, I would say, well, why is that? You know, I'd want to know what, what is it about the, the word feminism that makes you so, um, I don't know, makes you so like, uh, hesitant to use it. And then I think if you spoke, then okay, we could work out. Maybe you just don't, we're not in the same page on what feminism is and in that. And then after that I would think maybe they would be more willing to use a term like that. But I do agree that labels on an individual basis are not. You know, I don't introduce myself as a feminist to people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and also feminism in America is very different to feminism in the UK than to feminism in Africa and in pakistan. And sometimes, what you know what women get wrong sometimes, uh, let's say, for example, let's say the western feminism, right? They will then impose their values and their ideas of freedom and feminism onto the feminists of pakistan. You know the what women are going through there, and then their issues are so different they're like no, like you guys are not really understanding what where we are in the world, like their context, is so different that the feminism like that you experience in one culture does not necessarily apply to another. Am I making sense?
Speaker 3:yeah, definitely yeah, yeah, that's the intersectionality, yeah yeah, it's so important I mean to appreciate the different countries and cultures will need something different from from. You know, feminist activism it's not all just one homogenous um idea at all yeah, how do we tackle the growing division?
Speaker 2:because to me, like at least online, it's definitely getting worse, like I've. I've not seen people online be so divided in terms of gender as I have right now. How how do you prevent that? If it's not from a place of like empathy towards each other?
Speaker 3:because, although not everyone is that like radical feminist who hates all men, I feel like there there is a there is a lot of resentment from men towards women and from women towards men at the moment in society I think we need to like get offline and off away from these like um kind of like, as we said, this polarizing content, because I feel like all throughout this discussion we've been saying that we don't see that many people, like we don't talk to that many people in our own lives that feel this way, but clearly there is some kind of thought and people are having these discussions like online, or they're consuming content online and like that's not the real world, you know, but it does impact the real world yeah um, and I just think we need to be having much more conversations, definitely with empathy, like we.
Speaker 3:That needs to be, of course, like the driving thing. I don't think that you can have a serious, genuine conversation where you're interested in like speaking to the other person without empathy. Otherwise, that seems like a bit of a waste of time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Even to get someone to your cause and to fight for what you're fighting for. I think the best place to start is empathy, like understand them, make them feel like heard, almost, and like, yeah, I see your struggles as well, here are my struggles. Let's kind of work together to beat this. Instead of no, I'm struggling because if you and the system that you represent fuck you follow me, help me, or you're a dickhead, I feel like that just doesn't help. Like I think it should be like please help. If you don't, like, I'll try to do it myself. And if we believe humans are good and humans have empathy, then in the most cases, if you speak to someone in that way, I feel like they will help. Yeah, or the other option is just a lot of men are just dickheads, which is hopefully not the case. I think it is a societal thing where people just feel like they have to beef each other.
Speaker 3:And also maybe, if you're cynical, you could say the way people are online is their more authentic self, whereas in real life they filter their beliefs because they've you actually know who you're talking to, whereas online it's just random people having these conversations yeah, sometimes I do think that, like I don't know, there's so many things that people say online isn't there that they would never say to your face, and I'm like I want I'd rather you say it to my face, so I know where you stand you know, I think that feeds to the polarization as well is that lots of young people don't know where each other stands because nobody's saying anything out in the open.
Speaker 3:It's all online. And then in that case, how do you know who's what people are really thinking, and you can't even begin to dismantle beliefs that maybe are are not rooted in like fact, and or you know, how can you help people to understand how you feel if you don't even know what they're thinking in the first place?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:I think people need to have more conversations like you said yeah, I think that's a perfect place to end it. Do you want to? Ask your final question mila, we always end our podcast on the deep note. Um, so the deep question is it might not be deep for you. Who knows, you might be like this. I don't know why am I waffling on it? Yeah, bro, anyways, what would you want written on your tombstone?
Speaker 3:I have not even thought about. What would I want written on my tombstone? That is a good question. Do people usually know straight away?
Speaker 1:some people do some do, some have the weirdest answers, which is a beautiful I don't know, I feel under pressure.
Speaker 3:I just, I just want people, you know, I don't even, I don't even. I would want people to write what they feel. I want to be known as like a nice, you know um compassionate person, and I don't know if I have anything. Particularly sorry, that's such a terrible if I got to.
Speaker 1:if I got to like, let's say, if I was the one to write it to represent you all, um, I would say empathy and dialogue is what will unite us. Okay, that was a good conclusion.
Speaker 2:Well, I can only hope. Thank you for joining us it was great speaking to you.
Speaker 1:All right, Thank you. Oh, thank you so much for listening guys. Bye-bye.
