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Last Neanderthals Podcast
Education is Terribly Results Driven, Teaching Malala Yousafzai & Truth in History | Julie Coley
In today’s episode, we spoke to an incredible history teacher, Julie Coley. Julie has decades of experience teaching in some amazing schools in Birmingham, such as Edgbaston High School for Girls. We had the pleasure of speaking to her about the concept of truth within history. We also discussed the experience of girls in the education system and how it can be improved. Additionally, we got a glimpse into the unheard stories about her relationship with Malala Yousafzai as a mentor. We hope you enjoy and learn from this episode as much as we did.
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What inspired you? To become a teacher.
Speaker 2:I think initially my love of history. There is a quote from a book called what is History by EH Carr that says history is to society as memory is to the individual. But it's important that that history is good history, that it hasn't been manipulated. I feel that myths are being presented as truth, for example, but myths are being presented as truth For example, it feels at the moment that education is terribly results driven.
Speaker 2:There will always be somebody saying, but what is it that I need to know for the exam? Not what is it I need to know to make me a more rounded, interesting, interested individual, grounded, interesting, interested individual. What I think most teachers would wish is can we just stop chopping and changing and give us time to bed in at these things that you want us to teach?
Speaker 3:what do you think makes a good teacher?
Speaker 2:an interest in young people. You don't get very far if you don't have an interest in the pupils that you're teaching.
Speaker 3:What do you think makes a good student a successful student?
Speaker 2:A successful student.
Speaker 1:Speaking of good behaviour. Should smartphones be allowed in schools?
Speaker 2:No, the issue here is smartphone. These phones are anything and everything but a telephone. It goes back, I suppose, to information. There's too much out there and it's not used with any discernment.
Speaker 1:So you've also taught Malala.
Speaker 2:What was?
Speaker 1:that like for you.
Speaker 2:It was an interesting time for the school. We had to do an awful lot of preparation. Malala was in need of an education. This was why she had been injured. This was what she needed. This is what she stood for.
Speaker 1:Should we ask the final question what would you want written on your tombstone?
Speaker 2:That's a difficult one.
Speaker 1:Hmm. In today's episode we spoke to someone who has taught for 38 years, an incredible history teacher, julie Coley. Julie is now retired, but throughout her career she took on many great responsibilities. For example, she was a deputy head at Edgbaston High School for Girls. Her role consisted of the pastoral care and safeguarding. When Malala was moved to the UK, she was one of the teachers who took care of her. In our conversation, we spoke about many interesting topics, for example, what is truth and how do we get closer to truth when we talk about history? We also learned a lot about what girls go through in the education system, and Julie is the first person to ask about this because she taught in an all-girls school for 27 years. Finally, we spoke about many other interesting topics whether phones should be allowed in school or not. We hope you find this conversation as insightful as we did. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for coming on our podcast. I wanted to ask you what inspired you to become a teacher.
Speaker 2:I think initially my love of history inspired me to become a teacher. I always wanted to be a secondary school teacher as opposed to a primary school teacher. So I suppose initially it was a subject and history was a subject that I loved at school. It's what I studied at university and some of my friends at university, when I used to lecture them about the importance of history, would say you ought to be a teacher.
Speaker 1:So that's what I did. What was the importance of history?
Speaker 2:History has always been important, but history is, I think, even more important these days. History there's a very well. There is a quote from a book called what is history by EH Carr that says history is to society as memory is to the individual. It is, it is the thing that gives us, whatever culture, whatever country. It's a thing that gives us context, just like one's memories give a person context in their lives. But it's important that that history is good history, and by that I mean that it has been properly researched, that it hasn't been manipulated in any way, and I think that has become even more important. I mean, there have been many instances throughout history where history has been used to justify a regime, an action by a particular country, and it can be twisted, it can be manipulated. You know, the idea is that he who controls the present controls the past. So particularly in, shall we say, fascist regimes, even in communist regimes, history can be manipulated to the current truth and that they realize what is truth and what is fiction and what is manipulation.
Speaker 3:How easy is it to actually realize if history has been manipulated or not, especially if we go into the distant past?
Speaker 2:Well, this is it. I suppose what you have to be careful about is how you present it. There are, as you go further back in history, there are fewer and fewer actual sources. You have to remember the providence of them, where they've come from you, everything about a particular person or a particular event, and so it's important that you use careful language, that you only take things as far as you can in all honesty with that source.
Speaker 1:Rather than presenting it as like a dogma without any skepticism.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think the issue that we have today is history is as important as it ever was, perhaps more so because, with social media, with the supposed availability of material online, on screen, wherever, it is ever more easy to manipulate. And perhaps we still need those people who are properly trained to analyze sources, to think about sources, to think about sources as truthfully and honestly as possible, to present the history. It's so easy, I feel, that myths are being presented as truth now.
Speaker 1:For example.
Speaker 2:Well, I suppose one of the things that I might say and this is a little bit controversial, but in India they've just opened a site, haven't they? On what was the site of a mosque, ayodhya or somewhere like that I think so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're rebuilding it, yeah they?
Speaker 2:they have rebuilt well the. As far as I have learned from a friend that um the mosque was destroyed because supposedly it had been built on a very important Hindu site, but in actual fact, architecture suggests that there might have been an earlier temple there, but not as early as they are saying. So where is the truth? Who's listening to the truth? Who's listening to the truth? Who's manipulating the truth? To their ends, you know, because you have destroyed one religious site to replace it with a larger site, presumably to make a political statement.
Speaker 3:And you've used history almost as a weapon.
Speaker 2:And you've weaponized history to a degree. But I would say again, I say that with some reservation because it's not an aspect of history that I would consider myself to be expert in, to be expert in, but, and I think you only have to listen to Donald Trump and some of the things that he has said about the past.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like make America great again.
Speaker 2:Like make America great again. Like the election, the 2020 election was stolen from him. You know it wasn't, but there are people who believe that and there are people presenting that as fact, as history yeah, it's.
Speaker 1:It's the more, yeah, the you know the whole make america great again. When you look at american history like it's got very dark history slavery, you know crazy racism, even like the education systems, and even when it was founded on the ethnic cleansing of the native population. So are you saying we should go back to that? What does it mean?
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly what does make America great again mean? Go back to that. What does it mean? Exactly what does make america great again mean? But then again people would say about history. History is always open to reinterpretation, but the reinterpretation has got to be based on good history and good understanding of the facts and the evidence that is available. And it should be yes, you come to, yes, you do come to a decision about the past, but you should at least view it initially with an impartial eye. History does change. History is not set in concrete. History changes as we discover sources as we move through the present. History does change. How many countries don't have a dark past?
Speaker 1:Probably none.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean the British Empire, the British Empire's role in the triangular trade with slaves, africa's role in the triangular trade with slaves. It isn't set in stone, but it's got to be done. Well, it's got to be done based on sources and not just people's opinions.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there has to be a method to it.
Speaker 2:It can't just be a methodology?
Speaker 3:yeah I saw something quite amusing recently where someone said oh, I just looked back, uh, throughout history until today, and it seemed like, coincidentally, the good guys won every single time. And that's kind of what we're presented, almost.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but then, on the other hand, there will be people who say, well, history is written by the victors.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:And to a degree that's right. And also there's an awful lot of history that not just the losers have been written out of, but also women have been written out of.
Speaker 1:You've got decades of experience teaching history in the UK. What have you noticed in the UK education system that it's lacking?
Speaker 2:that the history curriculums are lacking or the way it's taught I would say that the history curriculum has become a lot narrower, particularly in terms of gcse. I mean, having worked in the independent sector latterly, I would say that we at least had the freedom to choose what we taught. But in terms of the way in which we look at history, I think we have become increasingly focused on the more recent past, and I think we've also suggested to students that the only past that is relevant is the very recent past. It's got to have some meaning to them, but also, I might add, focus on British history. You know that has narrowed it considerably. Yes, I think if you live in Britain, it's nice to have an understanding of your country's history, but it's also good to have an understanding of your country's role in wider history and to have an appreciation of the history of other cultures yeah, I totally agree, because colonialism, for example, that took place, or like the, the east india company, I forgot yeah, east india, yeah, east india company yeah, so like, for example, we are not taught about that until we get into a university and, for example, like you know, we we spoke about certain conflicts, like whether it's the kashmir or whether it's
Speaker 1:like the palestine, um uh situation that's happening and people, like some british people, say like, oh, like, what has uk got to do with? But when you look at Balfour Declaration or when you look at the East India Company and it's like I'm like, are you not being taught this in schools? And they haven't.
Speaker 2:No, well, they haven't been taught that in schools, but I suppose as well. What you've got to understand is if, as a teacher, I'm teaching all the way from year seven all the way up to A level, if, as a teacher, I'm teaching all the way from year seven all the way up to a level, you have got to be. You've got to be teaching history in understandable chunks. If you get what I what I mean. You have got to be teaching to the age of the pupil and to their intellectual development, the skills in history. I think you have applications across the curriculum.
Speaker 2:But an 11-year-old's mind is not as developed as an 18-year-old's mind, so certain concepts like colonialism, it's just going to go whoosh straight over their heads. So that's where you focus on things that are easy for them to understand. So you're perhaps more focused on individuals and their actions and activities and how they might have impinged on the country. Think about the Norman Conquest, for example. There are things that happened to Britain as a result of the Norman Conquest or England that you can't comprehend as an 11-year-old. But you can understand why William the Conqueror came, why he won a basic outline of what he achieved and what happened to England as a result. So you've got to make sure that what you're teaching does extend people a little bit, but is also interesting for them at that stage.
Speaker 1:But wouldn't see in some ways like, for example, you look at Pakistan or these countries like when I was living there and the history would paint a very positive picture of the country, right, like almost all the wrongdoings you don't see in the book. But don't you think it's very beneficial that in an interesting way, in a way where students can process it, that they should also learn about the dark side?
Speaker 2:of their history. Oh, yes, yeah, and sometimes it does feel that history is a very bleak subject because we've just said, haven't we, that history is written by the winners. But by virtue of the fact that you have a winner, you have a loser. And so you are looking at that conflict, and good versus bad, right versus wrong, that sort of thing, oppression versus, you know, freedom. So you are looking at big, big issues, but in an easily digestible form. The younger a pupil is. But you can never shy away from the darkness of history. But again, it would be entirely wrong to teach about something as dreadful as the Holocaust.
Speaker 3:From both perspectives.
Speaker 2:Yeah, to an 11-year-old or you know, they've got to have the conceptual development to really understand the true horror of some aspects of history yeah, I think one thing that's really interesting you that you mentioned is the focus on individuals.
Speaker 3:So, for example, winston churchill is someone that has brought up a lot in the education system. I mean, for us he was anyway, because we studied world war ii and he was um like presented as a hero for what he? Did during world war ii, but then we're not shown the other side no where he was extremely racist.
Speaker 2:He caused the famine in bang uh bengal so maybe do you think it would be worth mentioning those things as well, that there is another prism through which you can look at history and you can look at individuals. You know you don't want to just teach the sort of the hagiography of somebody. You know people are people and they have their flaws. So it is important to look at that person and to say do you know what? There are other ways of looking at this issue, this person, this question.
Speaker 3:History is about questioning, questioning the sources, questioning the reliability of the sources, questioning what has already been said about an event or an individual to me it seems like the curriculum doesn't um support that style of teaching, though it just wants you to go down almost just one route get the grades and get out whereas our, my teacher, luckily, was quite good. He'd do a good job at presenting like the different sides. He'd just make like a little nod to it. But, then of course we have to get good grades.
Speaker 2:So he'd teach you what you need, and this is the problem, isn't it? This is where good teaching and the desire to get results tend to clash to get results tend to clash and that whole question of what is education.
Speaker 2:Are we just educating people to get results or are we educating them to have a wider interest in things? Or are we educating them to become a more rounded individual that is invested in their community and in humanity generally? And it feels at the moment that education is terribly results driven. And I sometimes felt in a classroom that if something was said that sparked an interest or somebody asked a question that would take you off the curriculum sometimes or off the specification, there would be somebody else in the corner wanting to drag it back, saying yes, yes, yes, but do we need to learn that? Do we need to know it? And that's the thing there is always there is. The way we are at the moment is that there will always be somebody saying but what is it that I need to know for the exam? Not what is it that do I need to know to make me a more rounded, interesting, interested individual? What is it that I need to pass this exam?
Speaker 3:yeah, I found that a major issue in my gcscs.
Speaker 1:I was always interested to know more about things, but it seemed to always just be so exam driven like learn the exam techniques.
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah, just learn what you need to get a good grade and this is it.
Speaker 2:But also you've got to remember that history is only one subject across a whole curriculum yeah um, and also you've got to remember that at the heart of this is always the pupil, the student. And at GCSE, well, you know they're, they're being told they've got to get good results at A-level. They've been there. We've got to get the best results to get into university. We've got to do that. And but they're being, they're being beset on all sides. You know they're doing history, they're doing English, they're doing maths, they're doing this. They're being beset on all sides. You know they're doing history, they're doing english, they're doing maths, they're doing this, they're doing that. And it's kind of like my head will explode if you give me any more information than I actually need to know to get through these hurdles or to get over those hurdles how do you think we can overcome this issue?
Speaker 1:by maybe encouraging or changing the system, that with less g GCSE but more depth in these subjects. But then one could argue that, you know, students should have the freedom to try as many subjects and find their interest is too young.
Speaker 2:That's something that is. It's a difficult one to solve, because some people would say well, in this country where we do A-levels, we encourage people to specialize too soon, too quickly. Something like the International Baccalaureate is a much broader qualification qualification. But then there are those pupils who cannot wait to be given the opportunity to specialise, to jettison those subjects that they're not interested in Me.
Speaker 2:Yeah exactly so. A-level suits some people, the International Baccalaureate. Maybe people who A-level suits some people, the International Baccalaureate maybe people who don't want to specialise feel that that is better for them. It's something that the education system hasn't as yet been able to solve. We need qualifications, I suppose, because we need to have some determining factor for application to, for jobs, for university, etc, etc. But what is the best system? Who knows? But what I think most teachers would wish is can we just stop chopping and changing and give us time to bed in these things that you want us to teach? Or, better still, maybe you could just go away and stop politicizing education.
Speaker 3:That's a very interesting point as well. What do you think makes a good teacher?
Speaker 2:I think, first and foremost an interest in young people, a desire to teach young people. I said at the start that I came in it from the viewpoint of I want to teach my subject. I think an awful lot of secondary school teachers do do that. Fair enough, the interest. But you don't get very far if you don't have an interest in the pupils that you're teaching. If you're teaching primary school at children, then you're teaching a broader curriculum. So I think basically most primary school teachers would say they go into it because they want to teach children With secondary school teachers maybe not so much, but the best teachers I think are the ones who have that secondary level, have good subject knowledge but also understand how to put it across to pupils in such a way that hopefully will gain their interest and hopefully they have an appreciation of the individuals within their class and what might interest them and how they can explain things best to them.
Speaker 2:What do you think makes a good student a successful student? A successful student, I suppose one that is willing to learn, one that wants to learn, and somebody who comes to education with, or they come to subjects with, an open mind. They come to subjects with an open mind and just are willing to listen, to learn, to research that sort of thing and behave. That's a fair answer. Yeah, that, I know that's a difficult one. Children are children and really it's the teacher's responsibility to make sure that that classroom is a safe and hopefully enjoyable learning environment.
Speaker 3:But the students should also appreciate that teachers are doing their best, hopefully yeah, I think that that's a really important thing to mention, because I was one of those kids who got in a lot of trouble at school really. But I also got along really well with all my teachers like I can't name like a single teacher I was. I really disliked them and I think they all liked me as well.
Speaker 2:I hope anyway, there's no doubt about it that, um, students will say one of the big things that they will say to you is yes, but he or she doesn't like me. You know they do make snap decisions about their teachers and, yes, teachers have different styles, teachers have different ways of dealing with pupils within the ethos of the school, the ethos of the school. But I think it's very rare, to be honest, that a teacher would say oh God, stop that child. And if they do, it's maybe in the quiet of the staff room or the privacy of the staff room and they don't really mean it.
Speaker 3:What they mean is that student's behavior or that student's attitude or that student's um lack of interest is driving me mad yeah, one thing I noticed from the student perspective was, like all my other friends who'd get in trouble when the teacher would tell them off, they'd take it like personally like they're getting attacked, whereas for me it's like I know I'm doing something wrong, so fair enough if I get told off. I'm just being a little annoying, which?
Speaker 3:is fine, but at the end of the day, like I feel like you, you should be like respectful of your teachers, even if you're like messing around with your friends and stuff, like once they tell you off, okay, like calm down yeah, calm down, get on with it burning.
Speaker 1:Question related to this. So, speaking of good behavior, should smartphones be allowed in schools?
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:Why not?
Speaker 2:Well, I think they are a huge distraction. I understand from a parent's perspective why they might like their child to have a phone in order to be able to communicate, if they've forgotten to tell them that there's a, you know, a hockey match or a netball match after school or whatever, or if there is a particular problem about something. But the issue here is smartphone.
Speaker 1:I agree.
Speaker 2:These phones are anything, but are anything and everything but a telephone. You know, they give you access to the world out there and I do feel that people in general are far too attached to them. And in school it becomes the thing, doesn't it? You know, it's how you make friends, how you keep friends, how you cause trouble, how you access information that maybe you shouldn't be accessing. You know, and and there comes a evil at the school I taught at, we would say phones needed, needed to be left in lockers, locked in lockers, or we would confiscate them.
Speaker 2:But again you come up against the issues that children will always push the boundaries, pupils will push the boundaries. They'd put them in their bags, they'd go off. You know there'd be an alarm of some sort, or you know some kind of alert and you'd know they were in the bag. That leads to confrontation. But the biggest issue is it goes back, I suppose, to information and how to use that information wisely. It goes back to history, if you like. There's too much out there and it's not used with any discernment and there are too many ways to hurt people with them.
Speaker 1:So you taught in an all-girls school. That must have been even more challenging, especially for the safeguarding, and you were responsible for that yes, I was responsible for the, for the safeguarding um.
Speaker 2:In my role, I was um, a dsl, a safeguarding lead yeah, a designated safeguarding lead, and you would not believe the number of problems phones cause.
Speaker 1:For example.
Speaker 2:Practically every problem I ever dealt with latterly in my career was to do with a message on a phone. Now, that message may well have been sent covertly during school. That message may well have been sent covertly during school, in which time in which case it is specifically the school's issue. But phones go home with students, they are attached to them, you know they scarcely put them down when they go to sleep and messages ping all night and conversations are hard and and and. Some of them can be malicious, some of them can be really malign, some of them may not be as intended, because the one thing you can't get on a phone, on a message, is an understanding of tone and the expectation. And those problems come into school. If they're friendship groups within school, they come into school. If they're friendship groups within school, they come into school.
Speaker 1:And the understanding is that we then in school will deal with them, and does that distract?
Speaker 3:you guys from the education Would you say. The safeguarding issues have increased with the….
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, because obviously there is this business of sexting and that has become an issue with. You know I've dealt with. I've dealt with issues of explicit photographs being being sent between schools. You know, boys in one school to girls in in the school I taught at. Or you know, a message is demanding now this is an issue, that that is illegal, but I've got to deal with it. You know, if it's, if it, if it happens on my watch, I'm the one that's got to initiate the dealing with the problem. I'm the one that has to talk to the individual. I'm the person that has to talk to the parent of that child.
Speaker 1:How do parents usually react to these situations? How do parents usually react to these situations, especially since they're the ones who have given these powerful devices without teaching their kids about it at such a young age?
Speaker 2:It really annoys me, by the way, as you can tell from my time Well yeah, it really annoys me as well, but because I think the expectation, particularly if it's within a friendship group in school, it's the school's issue really yeah that's such a massive burden?
Speaker 1:yeah, it is.
Speaker 3:It's a bit unfair, in my opinion do you think children should have access to smartphones in the first place?
Speaker 2:it's a difficult one, isn't it? Because it's always a question, and I I think this is even more so. Maybe it's the sexiest thing to say, but I do think that girls are particularly vulnerable. You know, lads up until a certain age will go out and kick a football around the playground I don't think it's sexist, because there's a book called the coddling of the american mind.
Speaker 1:It shows that, uh, women have been affected with the rise of social media way more than men. Yeah, the suicide rates and you know all the other horrible like body um self-esteem issues, yes, there have been like three, four times more than that of a man, so your data would support you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think so. There's. Undoubtedly there's access to websites, you know, that are pro-anorexic. There, you know, there, there are people on on x, formerly known as twitter, who are constantly body shaming. It's a difficult path for young women to negotiate because there is an expectation about how they should look, how they should behave. Friendship groups are intensely important to girls and this need to, if you like, conform. Teenagers do like to think that they are individuals, but at heart, they're all conformists.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And this is where social media and smartphones play a hugely damaging role. I know I sound like a boring old. What's it? I am, and you know I have been retired six years. But I also feel that there's a sense in which social media and the use of smartphones and the damaging effect of the use of smartphones is catching up with young men as well.
Speaker 1:A hundred percent, like 90% of men or just actually young people in general before the age of 18, are exposed to explicit content. Loneliness again, comparison, similar issues that women face and just like the bad role models that are are on there, the type of messages they're getting the echo chambers. They are in the insult culture.
Speaker 1:I mean, I can go on yeah it's even for myself, like because I got an iphone at the age of 15, and even now, when I look back on it, like at the time, I was very thankful to my parents that all my game got me an iphone.
Speaker 1:But I'm like the amount of times that like, my attention span has been ruined, especially during my a level years and I had to like put it off for nine months when I was retaking my a levels because I failed, like it played a huge role in me failing my a levels the first time around and I missed out on brilliant university like kings and uco. And then when I went off here for nine months, then I was able to get those universities back and you know I would have regretted like that these bad habits for years, for decades, you know, if I hadn't fixed my habit and for some people they can't because they don't have that education or they don't get lucky like me no, no, I think I think this is this.
Speaker 2:Is this is true? Um, I think we is true. I think we do have to come to the realization that smartphones are having a detrimental effect. I think that there is a generation older than you I would say my children's age. They're in their thirties, they have well, my son has a child and I would say that that that age group is just as attached to their phones and they need to set a good example to their children. You know, put the smartphone down. Their children, you know, put the smartphone down.
Speaker 2:I see, I see now that, now that I'm not in school, I see people walking about the street with their phones in their hands, and, okay, I might say I live near the university, maybe they're looking for somewhere, maybe they're finding directions somewhere, maybe they're finding directions. But then I, I see an awful lot of young parents with their children pushing wheelchairs, you know, and they're not engaging with their child in that pram sorry, not wheelchairs, I mean push chairs in that pram, um, or you know, in their pram or their push chair, uh, they're not engaging with the child or the second the child starts crying.
Speaker 1:Go take the phone. Yeah, it's ridiculous yeah.
Speaker 3:Do you think our generation is more aware of these things because we've been through them? Like if I had a child, I would not give them a phone until you know a smartphone, at least until they're like at least 16, 17 maybe, because they are just so detrimental, I think, especially in today's uh culture where there's so much out there, like you said, I don't think it does anything to help them, especially this like new form of parenting where, if the child is unhappy or crying, you just give them an ipad or a phone to watch some youtube videos well, well, this is it.
Speaker 2:I mean. I, I often might, sometimes, sometimes my granddaughter will say to me, when we're in a cafe or something you know, and she's got a little bit bored, or whatever, she'll say can I, can I watch something on your, on your phone, nanny? Nanny will just say to her no, no, because it doesn't work on my phone. Now I have a smartphone, like everybody else, but I, I don't want that to be the way in which, um, you know, I'm there to talk to her, I'm there to interact with her.
Speaker 1:I hope she doesn't see this episode. The phone does work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yes, oops, yeah, it does work. I don't have enough whatchamacallit data. That's the excuse. I don't have enough datachamacallit data.
Speaker 1:That's the excuse I don't have enough data. Yeah, I can testify to that.
Speaker 3:I think on another point, I think it's important to realize it's okay to be bored sometimes as well. We've got to a point now where we're constantly looking for these dopamine hits. No one wants to be bored even for a second, and I don't know how that can be healthy to the human mind, which has adapted to like no stimulus yeah for so long. The only stimulus you'd probably get like back then was if a lion came.
Speaker 2:You'd be pretty stimulated then I would imagine um, but but yeah, it's, it is as though it's it's. It is wrong and and sometimes I feel that maybe not just smartphones, but I think that society as a whole may have a role to play in that that you have got to be usefully engaged at all times. But I remember as a child saying to my parents, you know they said well, go and do some, go and read a book, go and play. And I think this is the thing. It's well and we're also so. I think parents are so concerned about the safety of their children because there are so many horror stories that sometimes they forget about free play that their child doesn't need to have something to do every minute of the day, an organised something to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, if you can spend £1,000 on a phone, I'm sure you can sort out these.
Speaker 3:Play the proper like real life world go out in a safe way yeah and even then, like you said, they don't need to be doing that all the time, 24 hours of the day. They don't need to have something no, I think we are.
Speaker 2:we are maybe breeding a generation of overstimulated and perhaps therefore stressed individuals, but I also think the opposite side of things is that maybe we need to encourage a little bit more resilience.
Speaker 1:So do you think our generations are snowflakes? Little bit more resilience.
Speaker 2:So do you think our generations are snowflakes? No, I don't think that you are snowflakes as a generation. I just feel that I think maybe there is because of of phones. Possibly there is an assumption that there can be a quick fix to things and sometimes you need to work at things. You need to accept that life is life and there will be difficult things, bad things that might happen to you, but it's how you respond to them that's important.
Speaker 1:Speaking of difficult things, so you've also taught Malala.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and when she came from… Malala wasn't difficult.
Speaker 1:Well, the situation was what was that like for you?
Speaker 2:It was an interesting time for the school. I think obviously there was concern because of what had happened to Malala. I think naturally you have to consider, here is an individual that has a need to be educated and also, like with everything else, you have to balance the needs of the individual with the needs of the rest of the school. And it was difficult because there were parents who were worried about what having Malala in school might mean. Were we raising the threat levels ourselves as a school to make sure that we were doing the right thing for both Malala and for the other pupils? But it was.
Speaker 2:I think it was important that we did bring Malala into the school because the school was established to educate girls. It's the oldest independent girls' school in Birmingham. It was set up to give a modern education to, admittedly, the children, the girls of the wealthy families of Birmingham, but we have to remember that the type of education that they had before was purely with the governess, so it was limited in scope. This was the idea of bringing a modern education to girls and Malala was in need of an education. This was what, this was why she had been injured and this was why she'd been shot. This was what she needed. This is what she stood for, so we had to give her an education. It was important for us as a school and for Malala as an individual. She should have what everybody else in the school had an entitlement to.
Speaker 1:That's beautiful, but I also appreciate those parents as well that ended up being okay with it, because it is a risk. You know, god forbid if something had happened well, yes, and I think it it.
Speaker 2:It involved an awful lot of trust in the leadership of the school that we would make sure that the school was safe for them. And I also think it was important that what we did for Malala and I know it may be caused a little bit of conflict, but that you know we treated her as a pupil. There was nothing special about Malala in school. Malala was there.
Speaker 1:Did you tell her off?
Speaker 2:To receive an education. Did I tell her off? I might have had a few words every now and again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, good, she needed that.
Speaker 2:No, no, no. She was a very good student, but there were occasions when her mind had to be brought back to what she wanted to achieve, simply because she was a busy individual.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so one story that my father told me to ask you was about the news of Nobel Prize.
Speaker 2:Would you like to tell us?
Speaker 1:about that?
Speaker 3:How did you find out and how did it make you?
Speaker 2:Well, you see, I've just said that we weren't allowed, we didn't allow smartphones, but we had allowed iPads in class and I was teaching my A-level class and one of the pupils had news alerts set up BBC news alerts set up on her iPad that we had been using in class. And this alert came through and it basically said Malala Yousafzai has won the Nobel, and of course she was in school at the time, won the new Nobel, and of course she was in school at the time and it was kind of oh right, because we didn't expect it, we weren't anticipating it, and it was kind of okay, ladies, I'm going to have to stop the lesson, something. So I had to then go and find Malala. We were just coming up to break, so it was quite fortuitous really.
Speaker 2:So I went and found where she was, which lesson she was in, and then I went to get her to bring her down to the head's office to give her the information and to let her speak to her dad, to her parents, really, and to kind of anticipate what this would mean for the school in terms of press, et cetera, et cetera. So I went to find her. She was in a chemistry lesson, so I had to climb all the way up to the top of the school. Uh, I went to the door, asked malala to come out and there was a, as there often was when I appeared in doorways. Um, and she came out and immediately she thought she'd done something wrong.
Speaker 3:It's like every other student when you get pulled out of a lesson.
Speaker 2:And I must admit it had been my intention to take Malala downstairs to let the head give her the news, because it seemed appropriate, but she was so concerned as to why she was being dragged out of a lesson that I had to. Sayala, do you know what something's happened? Do you know what it might be? Yes, you have won the, the Nobel Peace Prize how did she react?
Speaker 2:she was surprised she was taken aback. She was well, I don't think she really knew how to react. So we went down to the head's office and we regrouped there and we got in touch, or various people got in touch with the family, because what we had understood because she had been nominated before and that hadn't happened and what we had understood was that there would be a phone call which we could take her to.
Speaker 3:but we didn't get any phone calls well, so you just found out through the news we found out through the news did your family get a phone call? Did you find that for the news as well?
Speaker 1:no, I found that through my dad, but I think he also found out quite late. Yeah, it was a.
Speaker 2:It was very weird the whole experience, I think I think it was the school that gave people the news, and then there must have been some something that happened here, um. But and then, at the end of the day, um, malala went to um a news conference, what would you call it? At Birmingham library yes, the big one, the big one, so beautiful yeah, where that was the first time that I appreciated the power of flashes on cameras. It was kind of like whoa, I had never experienced anything like it.
Speaker 1:That's amazing, beautiful story.
Speaker 2:But yeah, it was an exciting day, shall we say.
Speaker 3:What advice have you got for young people who might currently be in secondary school coming up to just get through these tumultuous times?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's difficult, isn't it, that everything coincides with you know, all of these important exams, etc. Important exams, et cetera coincide with you being a teenager, when your brain is doing all sorts of things and developing. Basically, I would say have some trust in your teachers and have some faith in yourself, but also pace your expectations. You know, if you want to succeed in your exams, you have got to work. It's not going to happen by osmosis. It's not going to happen by osmosis. It's not going to happen by magic. You have to be open to receiving the information, but you also have to allow yourself to do a little bit of work and also see that setbacks are not forever. They're only setbacks. Learn from them. Ask questions.
Speaker 1:That's beautiful. Should we ask the final question? Yeah, so we ask all our guests this question at the end what would you want written on your tombstone?
Speaker 2:that's a difficult one, I don't know. She tried her best. No, it's a difficult I I honestly don't know, but hopefully something like yeah oh my god, it's so, so tricky, but really, I suppose mother, wife, teacher another wife teacher amazing.
Speaker 1:That's the perfect place to end it, guys. Thank you so much for watching and thank you so much for coming on, julie we really appreciate you.
Speaker 3:It's been a pleasure definitely thank you, bye, bye.
