Last Neanderthals Podcast
Stories that shape futures. Last Neanderthals is a podcast dedicated to learning, evolving and becoming our best selves. Evolve with us!
Last Neanderthals Podcast
Navigating Palestinian Identity, and The Quest for Liberation and Peace
Understanding one's identity and roots can be a journey filled with both pain and peace. Join us as we sit with Belal, a British-Palestinian, who takes us through his emotional reflections on Palestinian identity and resistance. Over the past eight months, Belal has found himself increasingly drawn to his ancestral homeland, feeling a profound sense of calm despite the ongoing conflict. He shares the painful legacy of his family's displacement during the Nakba, the grief over his grandfather's erased history, and the futile struggle of proving his humanity to those complicit in ongoing oppression.
Our journey doesn't end there. Belal recounts a heartfelt trip to Egypt, where he sent aid to Palestine during Ramadan, meeting incredible individuals like Muhammad, an amputee, and families torn apart by conflict. Their stories of resilience in the face of adversity bring a human touch to the statistics often seen in the news. From political struggles and navigating expectations to the deeper meanings of faith and life's purpose, this episode offers a rich tapestry of reflections on identity, resistance, and the quest for peace. Tune in for an emotionally resonant exploration that promises to leave you thinking long after it's over.
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So it's been about eight months now since we had our first conversation, and how are you feeling?
Speaker 2:Yeah, not too bad, thank you. How about yourself?
Speaker 3:We're good, frustrated, because it's been eight months and two weeks since, you know, 7th of October. There's been no resolutions, no ceasefire. How are you? You know you're british, palestinian, you got family back there. How has this changed? You like we, we spoke to you like eight months ago. But what has changed in belal since then?
Speaker 2:um, I mean, it's been like a journey, I guess. Like looking back since we last spoke, man, I feel calm, I think in myself more than before, and I feel like I've started to kind of go back more into, like, my family, my community, you, you know, like even the title British, palestinian, like I'm thinking to myself at this point, am I British enough, am I Palestinian enough, you know? And I feel more like I'm edging towards kind of like that sort of legacy or that history which you know I missed out on the beaches of Nebirubin, the village that my grandfather, you know, grew up in, and I didn't kind of manage to. My dad had to grow up in Gaza. Instead, you know, we were refugees in the Nebra, and I see myself now kind of yearning more and more for a return to my ancestral homeland, a return to my ancestral homeland.
Speaker 1:You mentioned that you were refugees during the Nakba there. There's a lot of different perspectives that people bring on that. There's obviously the perspective that we subscribe to that it was a horrific incident where people were forcefully expelled over 700,000 people but then there's the other narrative that a lot of these people just left of their own accord or that they were told to do so by other Arab leaders. What? What is yours and your family's perspective on it? Like what actually happened during that?
Speaker 2:It took it away from us. I mean, that's it. That's the bottom line. There's nothing to it besides that my grandfather was. You know his body we haven't even received for 50 years. We don't know what happened to him. In the newspapers that we read at the time, in the archives I've looked into, know there's a name, there's a prison where he died, there's a date, but besides that, that history's been erased.
Speaker 2:I mean it's crazy, kind of just seeing how, how, like deep that sort of theft has gone. You know how deep that theft has gone and it is, it's, it's a wrong. Like they've literally robbed our homes from us and took us out forcefully. Of course there were some Arab leaders, like there were some African leaders who sold slaves. Of course there were some Arabs who did decide to sell land and you know, I mean, there were some who fought. There were some Arabs who did decide to sell land and you know, I mean there were some who fought back. There were some who tried to resist, my family included, and you know, I guess that storyline had you know its ending at the time.
Speaker 2:But besides that, like no for me, me, the way that I see it, is literally like this could have been my life, this could have been my home. I didn't have to come and experience being a minority where I could have been living, like you know, with my own piece of land by the beach, you know, with my little farm and all of these things that you know kind of make up the small things that I think really matter in life. Of course, having a shelter over your head is an essential, having food, water is an essential, all of these things. But you know, like even being connected to the environment, you're in swimming in the mornings, for example, in the Mediterranean Sea, with the sun basking on my face. When I was in Gaza, that was an experience that I cherish now. And every beach I go to, there's no beach like that one, you know, even my sisters, when they went for the first time to the Mediterranean Sea, man, tears of joy, smiling, laughing, just like hey, this is where I'm meant to be.
Speaker 2:And that feeling over the past eight months has only been strengthened by everything that's happened. We have a reason. We have a reason and you can see it right in front of you, you know, and the more that I kind of try, and you know, feed the crocodile. Guess we can go into that, like when I say that the more I try to show that, hey guys, like I'm Palestinian but I'm not bad, like the more I try to feed the crocodile, the more I realize, hey, actually, no, it's just waiting to eat me last.
Speaker 2:You know, this is a quote I saw by Loki the other day. It was someone else that like, it was someone else's quote, but it was on Loki's twitter and um, it really made me reflect because I was like, like when I'm here, when I'm actually trying to engage, when I'm trying to convince people that I'm a human being, like who are they at the end of the day besides? Like who are they at the end of the day besides? Like someone who's who's literally, literally just using you know, my pleas and whatnot for you know, just to suppress in some kind of way? I mean, maybe I'm kind of I don't know.
Speaker 2:I feel like I've kind of gone off on a tangent, but what I mean to say is like it's just there's no point, I feel, in even trying to reconcile with someone who recognizes that what they're doing, like the depth of the tragedy. There's no point in me trying to come in and say, hey guys, wait, no, look, I'm nice, I have a british accent, I, I do this like no, they know. They know we're human. They know we're here. They know we're educated. They know we're smart. They know we can do whatever it is that they can do or maybe it's us that know it and they don't believe it. It could be that you know we're just going to them, you know that's, that's heavy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, sorry, boss, you said like we are having to justify. Oh, I mean, show these people that we're humans, we're capable of being nice, we have dreams, we feel pain, just like you do. Do you think it's they're blatantly aware of this and they're just ignoring it? Or do you think there's been such systematic indoctrination that has taken place, especially in Israel, that these people they just to convince them? Like, how does one go about even convincing them to see other people as humans?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, look, there is obviously a lot to say about the education. There is obviously a lot to say about the education. You can talk about what, how Palestinians are depicted in the textbooks and what Israeli media shows Israel. I mean, at the end of the day, like if anything, we have access maybe to different sides of the equation, but maybe on that side, you know, it's not as easy to find these kinds of perspectives. You know, I'm not sure if even my words would reach an Israeli ear, um, within Israel, or even many Israeli ears, but you know, of course, like the thing is, um, I only see like that the way that does work is to continue, um, and to continue like uh, with you know, the cause for you, for liberation, all of these things. But on a personal level, as a Palestinian, my job essentially is to prove them wrong.
Speaker 2:If they try to paint us in a certain way, just just by smiling, I guess, and you know, being around people and given a good impression of who you are as a person, an individual, people, like automatically, are attracted to that, and I think it's not a matter less necessarily of whether you're Palestinian or Israeli, it's more like if you're a good person or not, if you're a decent human being, like other human beings will actually like get on with you. So, so that's literally like all that I can say. I mean, you can literally either feed into it, like hear that noise and you know, let it kind of dictate who you are, you know, just because someone sees you in a certain way, or you can just you know, I guess, like you know, someone sees you in a certain way, or you can just you know, I guess, like you know, like fight for you know being allowed to be in those kinds of spaces and when you are in those spaces that many people from your background aren't allowed to occupy, leave a good impression. You know, like all of these things the prophet tells us peace be upon him to do like I don't know. It's not really difficult, I guess, to let people like I don't know, like you don't even have to talk about palestine, like it's not, like you go when I'm on set, for example, I don't go. Someone, I hold him by the hand, I shake him, I'm like yo, yo, like free gaza in it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't do that, you know, but like what I do is like I just am myself. I'm me, I'm happy, I'm smiling and I'm extra like, charming, charismatic, whatever, and you know, go out of my way sometimes even because, you know, like, if anything you know, I want to make sure that if they ever find out that I'm Palestinian or from Gaza, and then, you know, maybe they've seen a piece of content which you know has led them to think that everyone from Palestine is, then there's a bit of kind of, you know, discontinuation in that thought. Do they call it? Um, uh, someone told me this um, it's like you, it's uh, it's like. Anyway, what I mean to say is they realize that what they see online is a lie, I guess, and what they see in real life is the truth, and they kind of, I guess, edge towards finding out more by getting to know you, as opposed to letting the the media, I guess, like pull you in a certain directional way.
Speaker 3:But yeah, I feel like you are a great representative for many palestinians like. You know you, you may not. You know you, you might. You might think that you know I'm being too kind or things of that nature, but you did a podcast with that Israeli person. Was it a Zionist Versus Palestinian? What was the title of that podcast?
Speaker 2:It was like Zionist teaches Palestinian A history lesson.
Speaker 3:I've not seen this and it got over 200-300k.
Speaker 2:Views. It's like best performing Piece of content In the last five years. Oh wow, that's mad and the comments.
Speaker 3:Were really appreciating Bilal Because he didn't try To demonise him, he didn't try To dehumanise him. So can you please Tell us more about that conversation and how that went?
Speaker 2:I actually bumped Into Joseph At a protest in birmingham and when I saw him just automatically kind of my thing, is, whenever I see someone, I reckon I just go up to them oh, nice, I know you, whatever you know.
Speaker 2:And, like I said to you and, as I was saying before, like I'm, I have this thing where I really kind of over smile or whatever. It's like, hey, even though I'm palestinian, I'm nice, you know. It's like I'm trying to fix that, but I did that essentially. I went to him and I was like, hey, nice to meet you, whatever. And at that moment in time, we actually recorded an interview where I was being that smiley, charismatic Bilal um and talking to him and stuff and whatever, and and responding to everything that he was saying with actual good arguments.
Speaker 2:But you'll never see that piece of content. You didn't want to put it out there for some reason, um, because of the noise. I mean that there was an issue with noise anyway. Anyway, I'm not gonna, you know, discredit the guy. He was very polite to me, he was very nice to me. Um, the thing is, when, after we actually recorded that bump since we each other he followed me on Instagram and I followed him as well and, uh, we were just starting kind of talking, I was waiting for that content to come out we actually said, hey, let's actually record a longer form podcast, um. So I offered, I said, hey, okay, um, let's do it at my uni, um. So we did that. We set up, I set up a, etc. A little studio thing and we had a conversation. Um, the whole two-hour conversation if you didn't know, there was two hours is only available for members, so you have to pay for that. Obviously, not to me, I don't get any of it, but, um, towards the channel. So you have to be a member of the Israel Advocacy Movement channel for you to see that whole interview.
Speaker 2:What was unfortunate was that he selected clips where you know I would be listening to what he was saying or what his kind of point of view perspective was. He'd take those kind of moments and you know, like example, he, he, he wouldn't put the parts where you know I'd speak often or even there'd be issues with like, like audio, for example, that that weren't fixed, like his voice was louder than mine. It was small things like that, and I'm not saying that these were on purpose. I'm saying that, like, these were things I picked up on and one thing that I was on purpose that he actually told me about, because I screenshotted this and sent it to him and I asked him well, maybe he actually told me beforehand, um was that he put the thumbnail?
Speaker 2:Was me looking really angry, like this cross, like this, and him looking like this, you know, like looking up and telling me and peaceful right, um, and he was like sorry, yeah, this is just, you know, for clickbait and that kind of made sense, but, you know, feeding into that stereotype of a scary palestinian um. But you know, when I went and sat down and did the interview with him, um, all of my lecturers told me don't do it. Uh, don't do it like this is a stupid mistake. Um, and part of me is like actually, yeah, they're right, it was a stupid mistake, but it was also a learning experience, um, and I feel like I achieved what it was I wanted to to achieve. I didn't try to win the argument in terms of the verbal argument. I wanted to win the visual kind of argument, like the whole kind of like you said, like being polite, kind, etc. Respectful listening. You know all the comments there appreciate the fact that there were two people having a civil discussion. The content of the actual kind of discussion never really kind of made the surface of the comments or whatever, like it wasn't really what they were speaking about, and I think that's a lot of what we see these days. It's more like the mannerisms, the tone, and even in language when we speak, only 15% of what you kind of get across is your content of the words, like the rest is your tone, your body language, how you kind of whatever. And so I guess that's essentially what I try to do.
Speaker 2:You, I wore like this kind of you know like edgy outfit, I guess, like these brown trousers and stuff, and then I you know, you know my classic brown jumper. You know that that's my go-to, it's like a recognizable thing. I don't know if I'm gonna do that anymore, but I did that. And then I also wore a poppy as well. So that poppy, because at the time that we were recording this, there was this whole kind of debate around the clash between Remembrance Day and the protests in London, the pro-Palestinian protests, and so there was people speaking about kind of whole thing with the cenotaph. It was actually the you know the right wing, I guess, if that's what you call them that made the issue with the police, not the you know the Palestinian protesters who greatly outnumbered them, my boys as well. We went to the protest, told me about stories. They had like little clashes and whatnot with all, like little kind of standoffs with the um, the other protesters. But uh, what I? What I was saying was uh wearing the puppy the puppy.
Speaker 2:Well, how did I go into that? No, going off, um, sorry man, it's so hard to follow me. I know, man, um, it's all good. The puppy. I wore the puppy because of that right, the cenotaph, etc. Um, and remembrance day, and I wore the puppy because obviously that's the side of my british. You know culture, you know respecting the, you know the time etc, and whatnot that you know the birth people etc sacrificed their lives and you know the people, et cetera sacrificed their lives and you know, I mean, at the end of the day, war, regardless of who's in, it is always, you know, led by donkeys. It's always lions that are sacrificed on the front lines.
Speaker 2:You know, and I feel so sorry for all of the people that are, you know, being, you know, led off to their demise when you know, the decisions aren't in their hands, you know, it's not in their control, and so I wore that poppy as a kind of symbol and I expected him to wear one. He didn't. But what I actually figured out afterwards and it kind of felt like something from the universe or from God, actually sorry was that, like, the poppy itself is also a symbol or a national flower for palestine as well. So, obviously, the colors of the poppy the blue, I mean, sorry, the blue the black, the red and the green, um, and you know, the poppy kind of growing in in times of war, uh, and I think even, maybe even native to that area I'm not entirely, but there was a link there between Palestine and the poppy. So there was almost like a double meaning behind, kind of why I wore it.
Speaker 2:Um, but you know, like, at the end of the day, when I saw the comments, uh, all of them were kind of a bit, you know, they were grateful that we weren't feeding into the whole clash of, you know, discussions and whatnot Like, and even when my my passed away as well, when she was killed, sorry, uh, when she was murdered, uh, he did, you know, he he sent, sent over his condolences, so I did really appreciate that as well. Um, so yeah, man, I it was, it was. It was a good experience in terms of figuring like how kind of the a little bit, how it operates and how sort of people angle what you say and what they pick. And it was a shame, I mean he didn't really put anything that I said of value.
Speaker 2:He made some reels as well, like some shorts, tiktoks, where he kind of, you know, got the upper hand and whatnot. And you know I'm willing for that to happen in any conversation. You know, have some points and I have some points. We'll have a civil discussion. At the end of the day, compromise is necessary. But if you're just gonna side, like, just show your side, your perspective, you know in the end, at the end of the day, you know to those reels, what you saw in those reels sorry, in the comments of those reels what you saw was like loads of these you know mean spiteful comments, you know calling me, whatever, all of these things.
Speaker 2:Um, firstly, I mean reels. You need to have a reaction to get engagement, you need to be kind of whatever provocative I get it, but like. Secondly, it's just like, you know, like you're, you're here doing that at the expense of children's lives, isn't it? Like, and that's the bottom line, like, what's the expense, what's the cost? You know, if we're here doing a drama show, okay, cool, like, let's do it. But, brother, like you're here literally using my face to get your point across and what I'm losing is family members.
Speaker 3:Yeah, 37,000 people.
Speaker 1:Yeah it. Yeah, 37 000 people. Yeah it's, it's, that's just it's. It's just dirty. I'm not gonna lie doing that if you're gonna speak about issues like this when there's so much at stake, keeping the full version for members only for a channel like israel advocacy movement, where it's definitely going to be very one-sided Everyone who listens to the full version anyway. They're not going to go and like, take clips of Bilal and publish them as reels. It's just a really dirty tactic. I'm not going to lie.
Speaker 1:There's things in life that are more valuable than like reels and views and all of that, which he might not even be that bad of a guy, but I just feel like society and people's biases and things overtake them so much that it leads them to do things like this, and that's what you see with a lot of people in israel as well. They're just so. They they feel like people are attacking them when they're calling for the freedom of Palestinians. Like two things can be true at the same time. People can want freedom for the Palestinians and not want your death and destruction. However, they've been brainwashed like fully to think no, their freedom means your destruction, when that just is not the case.
Speaker 3:And that's what Hitler did as well. It was like. For the Aryan race to survive and for Germany to thrive, it will mean taking more living space and basically the demise of others. This, this concept of superior race. I was watching a documentary on it yesterday and like we just seen this now, like it's happening again, to assume that, you know, after World War I, they said, oh, there will never be another war. And then World War II happens again, a genocide Right. Six million Jews were you know, they went through Brutal genocide and now they're coming. Their coming, their generations are doing that to the arabs. You're like man. You're like, how did we get here?
Speaker 1:how do you think we move forward? Like what, what? What is the solution here for for there to be freedom, liberation and peace for the people of palestine'm?
Speaker 2:sorry, man. Yeah, that is such a hard question that many people have been trying to answer for many years. The solution is peace, love and unity, and that's it. Unfortunately, in the world there are people who are greedy and people who are looking out for their own interests and they don't want to stop that. So what do we do besides? Hey, guys, uh, please stop, please stop, please stop.
Speaker 2:I mean, like at my uni there was the encampments and stuff, and that was a kind of action that sort of had some impact of course, and like, like, shout out to the students, uh for doing that. But, like, you know, at the end of the day, you know, you still have these people in positions where they need to protect their investments and whatever, and all of these things. And man, in times of war, bro, the most lucrative, you know, stocks, it's. It's like you know, get, get onto that, get onto that, like wave, as it's riding, going to the moon, you know, um, so that's really like the, the core of it, um, it's that greed, it's that, that, that you know that, that selfishness which, which consumes you know every like, you know not even everyone's expense, literally everyone's expense, but also, like the, the environment's expense. Like we were even talking about the weather just recently, like yesterday. It's June and it's raining, sunny rain. It's like it's crazy, um, and I think, like that's really the core of it. If you want to talk about like solution for Palestine, like you have to talk about solution for, you know, like other conflicts in the world, where literally the same pattern has emerged, and that's there are a wealthy minority who are protecting their own interests at the expense of, you know, a majority that doesn't have as much as many resources and doesn't have, I guess, as much unity within that. You know, it's just a very tight circle and it's, it's been like that.
Speaker 2:And, man, you know some people. You know, I hear they have so much money. I mean, I'm in circles where, like, I guess I know these people and stuff, and you know, like they, the only thing they say is you know, but I'm not even rich, like this other guy is richer than me or he's richer than me, and it always just goes up. You know, I remember someone telling me I can't believe there's people with less than 5k in their account and I'm like, what Like? And the next thing he's like oh yeah, I'm going, like you know, going, going to ski over the weekend as well.
Speaker 2:So, really and truly, there are people here who can't eat, people here dealing with a cost of living crisis, people who can't like heat their homes, etc. And then you have people out here who are literally like spending their money on, you know, like crazy things that they don't even need, like a golden steak. You know someone like dreams of even eating that they don't even need like a golden steak. You know someone like dreams of even eating that, brother, we could even do, like qurbani, bro, we could even do it for, like this eid in in gaza, because, bro, one, one sheep is 1500, you know. So it's like dollars, so it's like, uh, there's, there's just a great inequality in in the, in what's available, and that's because there are people who have exploited, you know, majority, third, you know not third world, but like majority global south countries and, um, now, this is the result of it and it's just always been like that. You know taking our resources.
Speaker 2:You know they watch this french documentary about the pirates, I think I'm not sure what. In africa, I'm not sure which country, I think it's, I'm not sure, I don't want to say. So pretty much there's an oil field, oil wells, et cetera, and the French are extracting it. And there are people local to the area who are in gangs and whatnot, with AK-47s and you know ballied off and stuff, and they're, you know, trying to, and you know ballied off and stuff, and they're you know trying to, you know disrupt that kind of uh, production, let's say, of the oil, uh, and they're called pirates, um, and I'm thinking to myself like, of course, obviously their use of violence and whatnot is not justified, but it's like, bro, the like how the french got there in the first place was through means of violence. And so you know, like, if you want to talk about how the world system is run by the monopoly of violence, and then you talk about how, like someone who lives local to this, you know bank of gold and doesn't even get a drip of it, how they, how they kind of maybe even get like a little bit, you know jealous, let's say like how could you not expect that?
Speaker 2:You know it's so weird, it's, it's funny how how that language is used and how the, the, the moral superiority of you know the, this kind of the extractive state, almost. You know like it, it it's so so, so, like transparently, like see-through, now, that it's just double standards. You know, um, I don't think, if anything, that that we can even pretend to live in that kind of world of of uh, you know that language even stands anymore. So you talk about, in the past eight months, what's changed. It's almost like that kind of illusion almost has has been, you know, lifted, and it has been for however many years. You know that kind of uh, maybe western, uh, like, uh, moral superiority. There are so many like loopholes that you can see.
Speaker 1:Now it's just yeah, I think it's been unveiled more clearly during these past eight months than it ever has been before. And the craziest part is, like everything you just mentioned, if someone was watching a film, they're always on the side of the resistance and then they understand it. Whether that's Star Wars, whether it's Hunger Games, that Dune film, the resistance to them in films it always makes so much sense, but now you put it in real life and they have their own, their own personal biases and things that they might have to risk for the underprivileged to come up a little bit and then no one understands it. Then there's always a reason to why those people are like barbarians and savages and we're civilized. I don't understand how, just like even a little bit of self-reflection when they're watching something like that would get them to to understand. But I think they don't want to. They want to live in that ignorance a little bit, because then if it goes on like it's not really your fault yeah, they can't bear the guilt.
Speaker 3:Even like Hitler's journals, like the one second to him going, all of them did. They didn't take any accountability that we were just blindly following Hitler.
Speaker 2:He had the wheel, but you guys help Hitler get that power, you know, and it's just this dissociation, like just to protect their moral integrity and their, their soul and spirit, but you're just as complicit yeah, I mean, you know, god literally says you know when people, when the I guess you know when the people are chucked in the hellfire, or they'll literally say hey, it was him, he was the reason why I did that, he was. And god will say no. And not even god, like the guy, the person that you point out, will say no, I didn't make you do it. So even hitler will say to to them as well, to his journals, to his generals, who will say to them um, I wasn't the reason, I didn't force you to do it, you were the reason you did it and you have to basically face your own punishment for your own actions.
Speaker 2:So, do you know what's crazy? Like I think I'm really actually kind of like grateful to a certain extent, um, obviously, despite what's happened, that my connection, I think, with, with god has become much stronger as well, that faith in iman, and when you're in that moment of of uh kind of being lost and not knowing what, what direction to go, I'm really grateful that god kind of gave me a kind of a rope to to hang on to, um, so like, there's no, there's no kind of qualms regarding, like, what you know, the, the, the, you know the justice, uh, that they'll receive for what they do, and every individual is responsible for their own actions.
Speaker 3:I'd rather die than kill a child hmm, when and how did that happen that your connection with God? Like you know, one would only assume that, based on the suffering that's going on, that their faith would weaken, they would question God. Where are you in such times? How did your faith get stronger?
Speaker 2:I think there has to be a bedrock already, like there. So my foundation is already there. So my childhood, growing up and whatnot, like, I had parents who you know with a religious background that made sure that I was, you know, educated regarding the religion. At the same time, you know, when it comes to religion, part of it is you have to explore, you have to doubt. You know a lot of what you actually think and whatever. And obviously, when you doubt and doubt, you know a lot of what you actually think and and whatever. Um, and obviously, when you doubt and doubt and doubt and you question and you explore, the only really conclusion that you can come to is that god was right all along. And that's what I kind of came to.
Speaker 2:I feel like I spent four years in london, sort of kind of questioning, debating. Obviously I did like philosophy or whatnot. I did ppe for, like my undergrads, and a lot of that was kind of questioning, debating. Obviously I did like philosophy or whatnot. I did PPE for, like my undergrads, and a lot of that was kind of thinking and pondering. And so a lot of my value system growing up was based on, you know, getting a good job here, maybe working for the BBC, all of these things, and really and truly I kind of saw like like my, I looked up to to an extent, like you know, sort of a lifestyle here and whatnot. But you know, when I saw sort of like, there was no hope necessarily, even in terms of making um, you know, we can't rely on humans, you can't rely on, depend on an individual and whatnot. Like I don't know, like it's just, it's just, it's there, I don't know it's there, it's you can't describe. You just take the step and you have to, you have to just go with it and you'll get carried um. But I'd never say that there was like kind of a, you know a like, finding almost like a connection, like I'd say it was always there and it's always, you know, still there.
Speaker 2:But even in terms of like your, your actions, your day-to-day like your, you know your routine and your, you know commitment and consistency, not being lazy, for example, is like is an important rule, like it's not just about just, uh, you know, looking or aware, having a beard or whatever to you know, say that I'm, I'm a Muslim, you know it's. It's about, obviously, the five pillars of you know, getting you know, getting your getting your, you know, iman straight and fixed Um. But of course there's there's giving to people, giving to charity, smiling um, making sure that you're you're someone who's you know, reliable, that you're trustworthy, honest. These things, these like small things that a human being just can't make up, human being just can't create, like essentially, the Quran was made for the preservation of mankind. What does that mean? I mean like you're here as a human being in your limited life of 60, 70, 80 years maybe, and all of your thoughts, essentially, no matter how long term you try to build, you know, compared to human civilization, if you think about the kind of development sort of over time, your actions and whatnot, like, could deeply affect that sort of trajectory. And so there's no human being that has the foresight to to kind of give the best way of having a healthy society over a long period of time. It has to be something that's beyond humanity, it has to be the creator that's telling me how I should live my life and how I should return and whatnot.
Speaker 2:And I think, really and truly like, the more that I looked into the Quran, the more that I read, the more that I prayed, the more that I made dua the Quran. The more that I read, the more that I prayed, the more that I, you know, made dua and saw things coming into fruition, the more that my iman was, like you know, strengthened, the more I became, you know, detached to all of those dreams of working for the BBC and all of these whatever, like all of these kind of, you know, walking on a red carpet and whatnot, like it didn't matter as much to me anymore. And when that happened, you know, when I actually felt like I was, you know, using tawakkul. You know tawakkul kind of almost like going, you know, putting your faith fully in Allah, as you're going, embarking on your journey. It's kind of like, regardless of any obstacle, allah will carry me through on your journey. It's kind of like, regardless of any obstacle, allah will carry me through.
Speaker 2:When I started using that ta'aqqul, a lot of what I was actually wanting and desiring and all of these things started to fall into my lap.
Speaker 2:And so I watched the TEDx talk, remember, like five years ago, which talks about kind of how, you know they almost like rehabilitated people in prisons to start like being creative and whatnot, and the first step was to forego the conclusion, to kind of not think about being on a red carpet, to not think about accepting an award, to not think, just to think about what you're in, what you're doing right now and how, how you can be the best at it right now, and then, just eventually, that kind of conclusion, whatever that, that thing you want, will come and it will emerge. So I don't know, it was a yeah, like there wasn't necessarily a finding again or anything. It was just a strength in it. Um, it was, it was more like yeah, like just it became stronger and stronger.
Speaker 2:Um, and now I feel like, you know, the only thing I really want to do is is just make sure that everything I do is is ensuring that I, I get to. The only thing I really want to do is is just make sure that everything I do is is ensuring that I, I get to the highest place I can, and, if I can, in heaven, um, so yeah last time we spoke, um, you were involved with the labour party.
Speaker 1:I think you had just been to the conference as well. Um, where do you stand with that now?
Speaker 2:uh, yeah, I left um around, I think march or something along those lines. Uh, it was at a time when I was actually getting paid like 300 pound an hour to take pictures in like westminster like yeah, with like rachel reeves and shit. And then, um, I was also like kind of part of this committee which was kind of helping in terms of connecting like London students and whatnot. The people there were nice, they were lovely, like everyone there I can't deny it Like maybe I didn't stay long enough and whatnot to get to know them on a deeper level. But you know, on a surface level, like everyone's smiley and stuff, and you know, on a surface level, like everyone's smiley and stuff, and you know, I think that's how politics works. You know, no one goes in politics screaming and shouting get out the door, but yeah.
Speaker 3:You'll be surprised, bro. You'll know more about Pakistani politics, really, yeah.
Speaker 2:Maybe a different culture, I guess, but no, like on an individual level, people are really nice.
Speaker 2:They're encouraging. Encouraging, I guess, me as a. You know gos and british. You know gos and brommy. You know I don't really say british, but I guess gos and brommy is what I'm saying. Now it's like my new thing, um, like I, I, yeah, I, I realized like that at the end of the day, I'm always going to be a, you know, you know, licking someone else's boot.
Speaker 2:You know, I remember when George Galloway got his uh, mp, uh, you know, when he got elected and I congratulated him and someone from the party messaged me being like, hey, take that down. Or, you know, if you're serious about wanting a job with us in the party in the next 10 years, take that post down. Huh what, sorry, say that again. And this was a guy that I was. He's made like, kind of like a mate of mine. You know, we had some mutuals and stuff. I said, mate, you don't control my future. Like damn you do you think you are? At the end of the day, you're telling me like what I should think. And I, you know I did take it down. Why? Because it's against party rules. I wasn't aware at the time. Um, but you know, like I, I felt it down why? Because it's against party rules. I wasn't aware at the time, but you know, like I felt sort of like I'm going to have to constantly cut my own like wings or whatever, just so I can fit in through this narrow door. They only want to see a Palestinian how they want to see a Palestinian. They don't want to see me for, like whatever I want to see. You know, it's about how they can use me and that's kind of how it felt.
Speaker 2:I was also like I was part of the Richard Parker campaign. Just for a very small part. I wouldn't say I was part of it. I'm not going to say I'm associated with him or anything Like, don't worry, so please don't come after me. But I did take like some pictures.
Speaker 2:I went volunteered one time in like January, december time, I think. So this was like like raw after October. Like this was me running trying to have an influence. Like in conference I went up to everybody trying to shake their hands and like whatever it's like hey, hey, like I'm a you know what I mean Like the thing that I'm trying to get rid of or feel like I'm getting rid of now, that kind of hey, I'm a nice Palestinian. You know, like I kind of I was doing all of that at the time and so I did that and I was taking pictures for Richard Parker while he was campaigning out in Mosley and there was an older, elderly woman it's not elderly, so it's an older woman around maybe 70 or something and she was getting into all of the pictures with the Palestine flag, so she was waving it like this, getting into all the pictures, and she was like a nuisance for them at the time.
Speaker 2:But they didn't know how to deal with her really, because I mean, like she's holding the palestine flag and if they do anything with, like obviously, this candidate and they know how sensitive it is at the time then they're gonna be. So guess who stepped in what? When my dad heard that story. When my dad heard that story, do you know what? Oh my god, I, I apologize to that woman, man, like I'm so, so sorry. I really I'm so genuinely sorry because, like at the time, I I thought I was doing right by kind of getting her to you know, trying to get the picture with her or not, and like actually saying to her hey, get the flag down, but you'll use. I literally said to her, like you're using my identity as a token, like what was I even thinking at the time? Like that's the level that I was at. I was there trying to literally suppress the fact that my own family were dying, just so I can, what take pictures for? For someone who's, at the end of the day, launched their campaign with the, you know, the leader of the friends of Israel, steve McCabe, like damn damn, you're telling me that I am literally letting that happen at the expense of what? So Loki sat me down right, him and my dad, in, uh, you know, in the, in a cafe, the one that's in the Grenfell um, uh, music video, um, and yeah, he was like yo, I get what you're trying to do, man. And he was like yo, man, like it's just, they're never gonna accept you, you know, and I got, I got it. You know, I understood.
Speaker 2:At that moment I was like and you know my dad as well he told me because the thing is, I was, I originally joined because my dad told me to, you know, like a year before kind of October happened. He was like, yeah, man, get involved with the whatever policies you know, so we can whatever contribute to the society and whatnot and we need like representation and stuff. So he's encouraging me to like actually get involved and that's why I was involved. But when my dad, my dad told me to stop, I stopped. Obviously, like you know, it's just kind of like these you know two great figures in my life obviously, my dad and Loki telling me, giving me this advice.
Speaker 2:I left on that day, you know, I understood like these are the people that actually have love for me, these are the people that actually will look out for me. These aren't the people that are gonna, you know, barely shake my hand when I extend it and look away when I do. You know, these aren't the people that are gonna, you know, smile in my face and, behind my back, say nasty things. You know, these are the people that, behind my back, are gonna stand up for me, and that's a big difference. You know, regardless of the 300 pound an hour, regardless of the money, regardless of the rooms that I was in, these people I watched when I was growing up, these people I had access to.
Speaker 2:That's nothing compared to the love that my family show me. That's nothing compared to the love my community show me. That's nothing compared to the love that you guys, my friends, show me as well, and that's the environment I want to be in. You know, I had the time to experiment. I saw, I even I went to the edge of Whatever it was that you know, obviously I could have went much further, but Alhamdulillah, god saved me from it.
Speaker 2:He showed me a glimpse Of that sort of lifestyle and I don't like it, so I left.
Speaker 3:And that's very unfortunate, because there are great people like yourself With pure intention that go into politics, you know, because they're great people like yourself with pure intention. They're going to politics, you know, with the intention of again bringing good. And the system is so corrupting that if you don't use certain language or if you don't behave certain way and if you're not like, they're forcing you to be almost like oh guys, I'm from palestine, treat me like a human. Oh, I'm a human, I'm the nice like. The fact that they're Having you to Like, the fact that they're Having you to Act in that way, shows how, how fucked up the system is Essentially, you know, and how Just this Corrupted the system is, and how the young generation that have that has good intention, is put off by politics and then it's left to the crooks, and then that makes me wonder what's the solution here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it always comes advantage of like, like, nice, meaning people, people that, like the people I met when I went to these events and whatnot, like the people that encouraged me and that even during october, like there were at the conference, there were like a group of councillors Sandwell councillors, um, that you know, wore the Palestine lanyard and actually looked out for me during that time. Um, so when I was there, obviously the leadership was saying one thing, um, but the people were kind of saying something else. I mean, obviously it was kind of split half and half to an extent, but there were people that outwardly wore that Palestine lanyard and there were people that went out of their way to ask me how I was and whatnot. And I really do appreciate them.
Speaker 2:And it's such a shame that, like, when it comes to it, even Keir Starmer bro in 2015, like he was speaking at at Palestine, kind of pro-Palestine, you know events, the things he's back, he's backtracked on.
Speaker 2:It's crazy and it goes to show you, man, like the people that you see, the faces that you see, really and truly, they, they, they, you know they answer to somebody and that's somebody we don't know. You know that's somebody we have no idea, who we can't access and, unfortunately, if they don't appeal to that somebody, that somebody is going to destroy them and who wants to be destroyed. Man who wants to go through that, like you know, like um, being dragged all over the tablets and whatnot, like he wants to have that kind of target on their family and whatnot, like bro. I mean I'm sure, like I've been seeing a lot, even just sort of with what you know people have been saying, with the, the clinton picture and um, I mean I can't even bear, like just to think, like how cruel it can be as an experience just being dragged for something that you don't even agree with yeah and something.
Speaker 3:Picture that was from two years ago and at the event they didn't even meet. And then for News Outlet to show that oh look, my sister supports Hillary. I mean, you can be in the same room as another crooked person. That doesn't mean you agree to what their beliefs are right, like again, you work for Labour Party. But that doesn't mean you want anti-Palestine right. You were trying to do good, you were trying to change the system. Of course the system let you down. You know, and for your own sanity and for your own moral integrity you had to take a step out. But for someone to assume that you know, just because you're seen with a guy or another person that has crooked moral values, then ultimately so do you, which makes no sense. But you know, we got to keep our intentions pure and that's what keeps us going. I guess I want to ask about your relief. So you went to Egypt to send aid to Palestine. Tell us about the experience. What was that like?
Speaker 2:This was the second half of Ramadan. My dad and I went originally actually initially it was my dad and I we went to Cairo and what we did was we checked out the warehouses and you know all the you know the different kind of met different people like the Palestinian embassy, red Crescent Society and whatnot. My brother joined us, you know, a few days after as well, and that was a lot of fun. So, and whatever it is that I can say to describe a wholesome, fulfilling experience to go and actually, you know, support them and stand with them and capture their stories, you know, and get their perspective, even like from my side of things, you know, I did a lot of interviews, I asked a lot. So, for example, uh, muhammad, uh, he was an amputee and I got an interview with him that I'm, you know, working on, etc. And a family as well that spoke about their experience. When, you know, the father of the family was um supposed supposed to be in, in I think it was Al Shifa hospital, um, and what happened was, you know, they obviously had no connection and whatnot. They couldn't. They didn't know where their dad was for a number of days or weeks or something along those lines, but thankfully they, they both, uh, they all managed to, to escape, if that's the word um, but yeah, it was an experience that kind of you know affirmed to me that that that was my calling. I guess, like that I actually want to do this.
Speaker 2:Um, part of me growing up was like you. You ask, like why, why was I born this way? You know, and whatnot? Like why do I have to deal with this? And because there aren't many other, um, you know people that I guess are in the same position. You feel a certain responsibility and that can carry a lot of weight, that responsibility, you know, you feel like you have to do something and almost like you're forced to do something. But that trip for me was like no, I want to do something, I have to do something, I need to do something. I remember speaking to this kid when I obviously, when you have your cameras out and stuff, like you have always the kids they come up and like can I take a picture?
Speaker 2:and there was this little kid man, sweetest smile, man, he's just standing, but, like bro, as I was talking to, I was like, oh yeah, like what is that? Where's your mom? Oh, man bro, fuck bro, fuck bro, like I don't know what to say, man, I was saying, I asked him where's your mum? And it's just, yeah, she's gone. And it's always like that.
Speaker 2:It's always like that every conversation we getting cut out bro nah bro, no way, I'm not cutting this shit, bro, I'm not cutting this. Nah bro, nah, nah, like this is the reality, I mean like at the end of the day, bro, like you really think, like we're just pictures, images, like videos on screen, you don't think these are people we actually love and care for. Bro, you're telling me this kid, six, seven years old, gonna grow up with no mom for the rest of his life and you think that's fine and you think we won't say anything. That's so dumb. Oh, my god, like this guy, bro, these guys man, I swear, swear to god. It's crazy just to even think, or or like, just imagine the situation like that, that you know that the palestinians are in right now, that I'm in, I mean, I'm not even I'm, I'm the lucky one, I guess you know, having lost 60, but no, no, there are people there who are living in tents.
Speaker 2:I remember my, my uncle's homes, beautiful homes, beautiful places, well taken care of, clean, you know, and they'd always invite us. Even though they didn't have much like kind of in terms of meat or whatever, they'd always give us the chicken and whatever they did, you know, you know, and on the offer. Basically, in a sense it's like they, they really take care of you. I mean, they welcome you, whatever. Like you know, there's so much love and now they live in tents and now they have to walk for water and now like a hundred share a bathroom and you know it's no education opportunities. All of these things it's like every day. What they do is they, you know, they're left to to post on Facebook and um, so every time I open, I guess my experience of it me being is just reading constantly my uncles talking about their kids that they've lost, always putting their pictures.
Speaker 2:So, like one of my uncles on a like um, put a picture of his, him and his son from like a year ago. Um, I'll read it to you guys. He was, uh, a picture of him and his son. He's now unfortunately gone and uh, yeah, let's see, let's find this. Give me one sec, where is this? I put it. I literally screenshotted it. Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, man, this is like awful for attention and everyone's going to click off as I'm looking Sorry.
Speaker 1:Ah, what is it? I put it on my LinkedIn. Let me just, I'll just add this is why it's so infuriating when you have these narratives in the West, where everything's just a numbers game. It's like, oh, it's 20,000. No, it's 25,000. No, it's 30,000. Now it's like, oh, it's 20 000. No, it's 25 000. No, it's 30 000, now it's 40 000. It doesn't matter how many tens of thousands, or specifically how many to the exact digit people have died. It's like they truly do not see these, these people, as human beings. It is literally just a number.
Speaker 3:It's so crazy to me and if it's like, let's say it's not 37 000, if it's 30 000, let's say, right, well, let's say there's 20 000. Let's say, for their sake, well, what's? Where do you draw the line? To just think that you're?
Speaker 2:this is actually getting out of hand it's such a until they're all wiped out and dead, like where do we draw the line?
Speaker 3:and this is why the media needs to do more storytelling rather than basically making people into statistic, because that's why people they can't connect, they don't hear the stories of. It's a little kid who's lost his mother, how is he going to live his life? People don't get to think and contemplate this question that they would. You know they don't have to, and they also. The media doesn't even encourage them to that. Imagine you're a kid without parents, but by the way they got, you literally saw them die. So now for the rest of your life, not only do you have btsd, but you want to take revenge. You want to take revenge? What? What are you gonna probably do with that energy that the hate you carry become radicalized?
Speaker 2:but I, I had, um, you know so imagine people telling you as well on top of that, like, hey, be, be hold out, be patient, and stuff you know, as they're munching their food, being like, drinking their water being like, oh, it's fine, you can deal with it. Uh, be strong, be resilient.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you see this is disrespect, like when my sister almost died right when she got shot. Um, for years, man, for the next two years, I wanted to do the most horrible things to the taliban, like, like the amount of images I was creating in my head and the types of images where I'm cutting them, stitching them back up, cutting them again and again and again, and just wanting to, like, do horrible things, horrible things like tenfold right, I mean, I was lucky. Then people tell you oh, revenge is not the answer and all that stuff, but they don't have great mentors like my dad. They answer and all that stuff, but they don't have great mentors like my dad. They don't have a dad they don't have a father.
Speaker 3:They don't have a mother. You get what I'm saying like. So it's, yeah, it's. It's really fucked up, man, because for two years I was just literally eating my myself up by having these vengeful things and I got lucky. I was the lucky one. My sister survived, bro. 37 000 man. And they're kind of like families, bro. Imagine losing a whole family, everyone missing limbs, heads.
Speaker 1:Kids are missing heads like a five-year-old left in this world just on his own, with no one, like at that age. What, what are you supposed?
Speaker 2:to do, bro.
Speaker 1:It's good man, honestly it is genuinely so infuriating when they get so caught up over the numbers, like it's not a genocide because there's not a hundred thousand or five hundred. It's so stupid. Our minds cannot even comprehend more than a hundred people dying at a time. So why are you pretending that, oh, because it's not over a certain threshold, that it's okay? It's not okay. Every life is valuable and it's not even like.
Speaker 1:All that matters to them now is the people that are dead. As long if you're not dead, your life is just. It doesn't matter if your life, life has been destroyed. You've lost all your family members, but you're alive. It's okay because you're not adding to that threshold to where it would be a genocide. Like it's so crazy. People have lost everything, but they're not part of that 37,000. So it doesn't matter, like, do you know what I mean? All that matters is the number of people who have died, but there's countless people who've lost their families, who've lost limbs, who have. Basically, they feel like they have nothing to live for and we're supposed to just accept that. Okay. So what they did with our part of the world as well, like as they were leaving afghanistan, they dropped the, the mother of all bombs, the biggest bomb ever. Just for fun, for literally no reason. So many people died like we don't even know how many people died and they just did it basically for a laugh remember those people holding on to that plane yeah, trying to leave, yeah, but they were just
Speaker 2:falling from it, man so mad because that's exactly how I saw my own, like kind of contribution, whatever with the labor party or whatnot. I was like they took their dogs with them and I'll be the one clinging on the plane. Hey, please let me in.
Speaker 1:Hey, hey, let me on boards the people who helped them the translators and stuff. Now they're shipping them off to Rwanda. When they've come here to seek, seek help from the people that they helped, they're shipping them off to Rwanda a world like, I guess, where you, I mean, it's always.
Speaker 2:It just seems to just be the case, and unfortunately it is big eat small, and we're the small ones. Um, so yeah, what would?
Speaker 2:you say to that kid man oh man, um, of course, bro, I looked him in his eyes, I gave him a hug, I told him it's fine, I'm really sorry to hear it and whatnot you know, but obviously, like you know, there wasn't really much to say, and even now there's not really much to say when it comes to what's happened. You know, so many people have lost so much, they felt so much that they almost feel kind of drained by all the emotion and, um, it's almost like that's what they kind of want from us. They want us to expend all of our you know energy so that we, we have nothing left when, when they actually make a move. Uh, but right now I mean, yeah, like what I told the kids, it's, it's, it's him, it's every conversation, man, it's every time, bro.
Speaker 3:What did you learn from?
Speaker 2:that, how to love, how to have faith, how to have Iman, how to have peace, how to genuinely like, like what actually matters in life. You know, I think that's what I learnt, because no matter like the money, no matter the, whatever the status, no matter the car, like. Do you know how many people feel empty inside, like here in the uk, like genuinely. Do you think they feel empty there? Of course they do now with, with what's happening, but I mean during normal times, of course people still want more and whatnot, but do you think they feel that same emptiness that we feel when we're here or the people even here rotting?
Speaker 2:I don't think they even get opportunity to contemplate, you know, existential questions, and they're probably thinking about the next meal think, uh, you know when you're going to bed, when you're sleeping, when you can't, while the drone is on, you're always thinking about your existence. So my um, my cousin, actually sent me, uh, you know, a diary entry that he wrote. It was quite long. It was, uh, about kind of depression and what it means and how it affects and whatnot, and like there's a lot of time to contemplate because you're not working, you're not studying, etc. So more time like you're literally just you know you're either eating or you're, you know you're sleeping or you're running away from something, I guess like, um, but no, uh, they have, they have literally like this thing you just can't take away from them, which is that iman and the strength of it.
Speaker 2:It's like this is so, like that's the only way I can describe it is is that feeling complete, almost within yourself, obviously knowing that there are challenges or whatever, but in yourself at least, like going to sleep, feeling calm, all of these things. That's something that I learned from the people I've met, you know, in my trip to cairo, when I was in gaza all over. You know it's, it's that, it's that thing, um, and so I think that's only really possible when you kind of submit your will to the will of god. And yeah, and kind of, you know, ignore the whispers of the shaitan yeah, well, thanks for joining us again.
Speaker 1:It's always a very moving conversation. I can't believe we're finishing it like down.
Speaker 3:I went by quick, yeah, and thank you for opening up about you know your experience at the labour party like that, it takes a lot of courage to you know, share such a what you would. You know your experience at the labor party like that. It takes a lot of courage to you know, share such a what you would. You know, you, you, I mean you, probably, I don't I, I I assume that the amount of guilt that you must have like gone through and the fact that you want to share that to publicly in order to inspire people to not make the same mistake as you, that takes courage. So I really appreciate you bringing that authenticity and telling us about other moving stories and just being like you. And you know you're a great representative for peace, not just in palestine but everywhere.
Speaker 2:And, most importantly, you're a great friend to us and you know we are very lucky to have you in our life yeah, generally like I, I do feel like there's so much more to say and you know I I'm, you know, genuinely like I, I do appreciate the times where I'm given this chance to genuinely kind of feel comfortable enough to almost. You know, I'm sitting like this, I even know um, but it's only possible with you guys and I really do appreciate, uh, you guys having me on thank you we'll ask you the last question what would you want written on your tombstone below?
Speaker 3:a just that's it a yeah, the letter, a no, just like a, you know, like A Y, y, y, oh, a. Okay, alright, man, you know you gotta come back. We're gonna ask you this question again. I'm not taking this. I'm not taking this. So your parents are gonna ask me like, oh, like, you know, god forbid, one day, like, if you go in, they might, you know, might call us like, but like, oh, like, is this female? Like you know, we're gonna bury him. They're like oh, yeah, so, but I wanted a written on his tombstone. Your dad would be like yo, you know, are you taking the piss, bro? You would come with a slipper and beat the shit out of you. I can't say that to him. I might have to send him the clip to be fair. He was like oh, my son was a great man, but what a stupid thing to say.
Speaker 2:It'd probably be like like it'd probably be like something in arabic, like it would be like something like a quranic verse or something like that and next time come over man we'll give you time to think about it, and then next time, when you're back on the podcast, you'll have an answer.
Speaker 1:That was the best answer you've ever had.
Speaker 2:My mind just raised me so many times Like, hey, it's just like it's so so, so like reliable.
Speaker 3:Hey, maybe we're ignorant, maybe it's got a deeper meaning. You know, you got it. Hey, you know, hey, I get it. Now I you know what? I get it, I get it, you get it, I get it. Yeah, that's perfect man. I think you saw universe. I think that is the meaning of life no that's it. That's it. That is the meaning of life.
