Last Neanderthals Podcast
Stories that shape futures. Last Neanderthals is a podcast dedicated to learning, evolving and becoming our best selves. Evolve with us!
Last Neanderthals Podcast
What is True Masculinity and can AJ comeback from the Loss?
Imagine stepping into a ring not just to face your opponent but also the weight of public scrutiny. Join us as we recount the electrifying bout between Anthony Joshua and Daniel Dubois. From Joshua’s early setbacks to Dubois’ stunning victory, we explore the emotional highs and lows of this unforgettable fight. We'll also reflect on Joshua's remarkable composure and resilience in the face of an overwhelming loss, and discuss the rampant issue of online trolls who undermine the courage it takes to compete at such a level.
But the episode goes beyond the ring. We use Anthony Joshua’s journey to delve into the concept of healthy masculinity. Respect and accountability are key themes as we highlight how Joshua maintains his dignity even when challenged. We draw parallels with Tyson Fury’s openness about mental health, illustrating the importance of expressing vulnerabilities. Through these examples, we question societal norms and encourage a broader, more empathetic understanding of what it means to be a man in today's world.
Finally, we tackle the complex issue of toxic gender stereotypes. Is it fair to attribute certain negative behaviors to masculinity, or are they simply poor human traits? By examining societal prejudices and the need for better communication, we advocate for self-reflection and empathy. We also critique the role of social media in perpetuating biases and stress the importance of fundamental values like love, peace, and forgiveness. Join us for a thought-provoking discussion that challenges conventional wisdom and aims to foster a more compassionate society.
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welcome to the last neanderthals podcast. I'm joined by wally and today we're going to speak about boxing. I know it's not our traditional podcast, you know, where we speak about education, but I think, um, boxing can teach you a lot about life. So our boy, anthony joshua man, he got beaten up badly. Um, that was heartbreaking. What did you make of the fight?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so first of all, all credit to Daniel Dubois. There's a new king of British heavyweight boxing and everyone really counted him out, myself included.
Speaker 2:Yeah, me too yeah, I really like Anthony Joshua. I have for a long time, so I was really backing him for this fight. I thought he's gonna do so well, but unfortunately for him it didn't go that way. But shout out to daniel dubois seems like a really nice guy to be first. Just, he's always smiling, always chilling. But the fight was crazy, man it. It was so crazy, especially the last round, because I thought, oh, he's finally back in it, he's getting it because he rocks him. He rocks him, dubois' legs buckle and he's going in. I'm thinking he's going for the finish now. He has to go for the finish because any time Dubois touches him he's falling over.
Speaker 1:But that punch it was so crazy three right hands in a row of course by the way, joshua got rocked in the first round so he's not thinking straight and Dubois just catches him with the straight it was.
Speaker 2:It was such a rollercoaster of emotions. Man AJ's got no chance. He's completely done. Oh, he's rocked him. Oh, he's knocked out. And he's never been knocked out like that in his life. He's been knocked down in a couple of fights, obviously, but he's not been knocked out like that ever before.
Speaker 1:It was a weird sight to see, to see this behemoth of a man, almost like a demigod, right, just like planted on his face. Man, boxing is a brutal sport, man, and respect to these boxers they're really out here putting their lives on the line and respect to Joshua Imagine getting clipped in the first round Then to make it all the way to fifth round. He could have just called, he could have just quit at any moment, but he went out on his shield. And you know, boxing is more than just winning and losing, and this is one of the things I wanted to speak to you about is that it's so absurd that men, they literally go on twitter to then meme these fighters after, like I understand with football and everything else, but this is a fight, it's a. It's a fight these people are. They can, you know, lose their life in there. Yeah, you, you, you are not brave if you have never stepped in the ring, you've never been punched in the face before. Who are you to say anything? Who are you to say anything? And you know, that's just the lack of empathy, just it's absurd. But again, no one can take it personally because these are trolls and they're insecure people.
Speaker 1:But I was extremely impressed with um, just joshua's attitude after it as well. You know. You knew he was hurt and he wanted to. You know, after usik losing the second fight he kind of lost his mind. But to keep it together after that you have to. He wanted to.
Speaker 1:You know, after Usyk losing the second fight he kind of lost his mind. But to keep it together after that you have to. He wants to win. He's a competitor and to you know, keep his cool after that and show the character. That's why I'm his fan. You know it's through the way he's dealt with losses. And you know, when he lost to Ruiz, he said that quote don't let success get to your head. Okay, when he lost to Ruiz, he has that amazing quote don't let success get to your head and failure to your heart. That quote single-handedly changed my life. I had failed my A-levels and making excuses and not facing the reality, but not letting that failure get to your heart, no matter if it's in academics, if it is in fitness, if it's in business, if it's at your job. I think that's the lesson to take away from Anthony Joshua and his heart was on display there and again, like you said, credits to Daniel Dubois. He's the new king. What do you think happens in the rematch, if there is one?
Speaker 2:I still think AJ wins because, I'm not going to lie, that was not a normal anthony joshua performance. He came out and from the very start he looked very amateur, like even even everyone could tell he was so off. His hands were really low, tucked in like right here. His feet weren't moving properly and even before the bell rang I told my friend, like he looks really nervous, like I've not seen him look like that in a long, long time before the fight. And then, yeah, he came out and it was so, so weird the way he was moving, the way he was fighting.
Speaker 2:He was quite amateur and obviously he's not an amateur, he's one of the best boxers in the world. So I think something must have been off, something must have been wrong and he's not the type of guy to make excuses and say, oh, this is what happened, this is what went wrong and everything like that. So I think if anthony joshua comes back and he's proper on it, if he's locked in, I think he still beats daniel dubar, which people might say is controversial or all of that kind of stuff. It is, willie. No, I think you look at AJ in the Nganou fight, how he was moving, how he came out and you look at AJ in this fight. I think more obviously Dubois was great, but this was more a result of aj being quite poor like really poor than dubois being great it was. So it was literally just really amateur mistakes.
Speaker 1:Chin, yeah up high mentals.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the chin high arms down here leaning back yeah, leaning back in boxing.
Speaker 2:Go to the side it was the weirdest thing. I didn't understand it because also, I thought he was nervous from the start but then he was also like taunting the whole time. He'd been dropped three, four times and afterwards he was still like sticking his tongue out and things like that. So maybe that was like, uh, a facade to like show. Oh, I'm not nervous, like because he's got the nervous energy or something. I I don't know, I'm not in his brain, but I think if there is a fight again, I still think aj wins well, I would want aj to win, but I think I think deborah might.
Speaker 1:I think the age might be catching up with aj. I think partly the reason why aj was making those mistakes is because De Boer hit so hard. That jab is insane man.
Speaker 2:That guy's heavy, heavy handed but it was from the first bell. It wasn't even his. His feet and his hands and his chin were like that from the very first second. It wasn't like after he got caught with that big right hand, that's when it went out the window. It was literally from the first second. And obviously that big right hand in the first round then meant he couldn't readjust and he couldn't get back into it because maybe if that hadn't happened, he comes back in the second round and he's the normal AJ because his corner tells him you're doing all this wrong.
Speaker 2:But regarding the age thing as well, a few months ago everyone's saying age is the best heavyweight in the world. Like age doesn't catch up to you with in a few months he beat nganu in a devastating fashion. Tyson fury got beat up by nganu and everyone's oh, this is the best aj we've ever seen. So just a couple months on from that, it can't be an age thing. The age is caught up from him. He can't go from the best we've ever seen him best heavyweight in the world to a few months down the line oh, he's finished. Age is caught up to him. And with Daniel Dubois, like he's been beaten by Joe Joyce, even Hergovich in his last fight gave him a really, really tough time. Hergovic was winning most of the fight, I think, for the start, if I remember correctly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he was getting Dubois, just getting caught with right hand after right hand.
Speaker 2:So I think obviously Dubois is also a world class fighter, but AJ's definitely got the capability to win that fight and I still think he is the favourite if he fights like he normally does.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I think what you said is best case scenario for ages camp. If he's just been outwilled which is a lot of people are arguing that just did well, wanted him more. The hungry young lion, 27 years old, he's got that energy, that urgency, you know, that desire, um, and that also, that youth and strength. If that's not the case, if it's just purely AJ's fundamentals weren't there and that plays a huge part. But if it's that, then that, I think, is the best case scenario for AJ and, as an Anthony Joshua fan, that's what I hope for. But again, I don't want to be ignorant To the reality as well. He got outclassed, you know, and we can't make excuses either for aj. I mean, of course we're stating reasons, some valid reasons, but we have to give dubois credits, um. But I I also want to have a more general conversation regarding aj to you. I I think he's such a good um, just a good example of what healthy masculinity is, um, you know, even after he lost to Usyk, like, I think, just to express his emotions, that vulnerability, um, his attitude, how he carries himself, I think, um, he, you know, when we look at these Red Bull YouTubers and you know, andrew Tate, sue Myron, like that's all a facade. This is true masculinity.
Speaker 1:To risk it all in front of 96,000 people, right To be willing to roll the dice, and it could result in embarrassment. I don't see it as an embarrassment. I think I just have more respect for the guy after, because how can you knock anyone down to get me after taking that risk? A lot of people would just pass out at the ring walk stage, you know. So I, yeah, I just wanted to speak about that and, um, yeah, like what, what? What do you think you know healthy masculinity? And I wanted to ask you because currently for the youth, it is, you know, a problem. They don't know who to look up to. So what are some of the qualities that young people should look at in their role models that they're like? You know what I want to grow up to be? Not like them, right, because you shouldn't. I feel like everyone should be themselves, but learn from them and aspire to have their hard work, for example, and things like that. Please, I would love to know your thoughts.
Speaker 2:I think, one of the most. There's a lot of things, but one of the most important things that comes with healthy masculinity, I'd say, is probably respect, and that's one thing Anthony Joshua embodies really well. Everyone who, uh, shows him respect, he also respects them back. He's not like one of these boxers who will trash talk or chat shit for no reason. He's always respectful until the other guy crosses the line. Um, you kind of saw it with Dubois in this fight where he got under his skin a little bit in that face-to-face, and Dillian White got under his skin as well, but still he does his best to stay quite composed. That's one thing I really admire about Anthony Joshua. Even if he has that underlying aggression or whatever people say about him that, oh, maybe he's not this guy, he's showing to the cameras which people accuse him of doing all the time. I think it is very admirable, even if admirable, even if that is the case that when he's put on such a platform he presents his best self as often as possible, like to the kids watching. That's a good thing. I don't know why that would ever be a bad thing that you're portraying. You're showing people that this is the way you should be, be respectful, be kind and, yeah, just be a good person. Because in everything he he does, that's what he kind of seems to portray and I think that's amazing in an age where we've got like Tyson Furies, who are going off the rails like giving into their indulgences left, right and center, same with Conor McGregor. These types of fighters and then other celebrities are even worse than fighters for that. So I think he does that really well. Other than that, I think he does that really well. Other than that, I think masculinity it's, it's a really important part of that is being a good person, like giving to your community and just giving in general, because it comes from that like prehistoric or ancient thing of being like a provider that people ascribe to masculinity, like protecting and providing. I think that goes hand in hand with caring for people and giving back. Um, I think that's it.
Speaker 2:I think it's very, it's very difficult to to to, just off the top of your head, roll things off of what is masculine and feminine because, like, for example, some people will say that being emotional and showing your emotions and showing your vulnerabilities is healthy masculinity, but other people will disagree and I I'm not sure on that, like where I lie on that? Because at the end of the day, I'm from, I'm from the village in pakistan. I've been brought up a certain way, certain things have been ingrained in me, been indoctrinated, so, um, I've still got a little bit of that stuff in me. But what do you think? I know you're really. You think about this kind of stuff a lot. So what do you think healthy masculinity entails?
Speaker 1:I think, accountability, I think one of the best quality aj has is accountability. When he, you know, after the usik meltdown, he admitted later that that was that the way he reacted in the way he acted. He never tried to justify it, he said that he was wrong. Of course he helped us understand that he's a competitor. He was hurt and I think a lot of people don't want to do that, you know, they don't want to say that they were in the wrong. So I think that sense of accountability and you know, saying that you're not always right, and showing yourself, I think, being human, honestly being human, and you know if you're feeling vulnerable, right, whether it's expressing that to the public or you don't have to do it to the public, but expressing it to the people who care about you, like whether they're your friends, if you're going through a tough time, you know if you need to cry your heart out, cry your heart out, and I think sometimes you know that's discouraged, like by the likes of tate and all these guys, that they see that as a weakness. But I think there's a great strength in that to you know to to, to be honest, to be truthful, because I think bustling it up Can really eat you up. It has eaten me up when I've not been honest, when I've tried to put on the brave face. You know it's fired back, it's led to. It's led to a lot of Emotional conflict, confusion, but whenever I've been honest with my friends and really told them and at times cry to them that I'm struggling, it just helps you regain your thoughts, regain clarity and yeah and I think aj is again, he embodies that. Um, of course he's not perfect. No one is saying he's perfect and I think it's that imperfection that he, you know, he's honest about his, his imperfection. I think it's that imperfection, that he's honest about His imperfection. I think that's what makes a healthy masculinity, because toxic masculinity. If we look at the flip side, it's like, you know, they see, men should never cry and men should always be tough and brave. And, yeah, ideally, yes, but if men are vulnerable, there needs to be space for them to be. We shouldn't be demonizing them and judging them in a negative way. Be like, oh, man up, you know that's toxic, that is really toxic. If someone's struggling, you can't just tell them to man up. That's not helpful. Yeah, you know, it just isn't. So. I think just that honesty and just that human side of AJ and other great. There are other fighters like that as well.
Speaker 1:I mean Fury, after he went through depression, the how much, how many people he inspired by just telling them like you know how he went through, how he had suicidal thoughts, how he never wanted to train, the self-sabotage cycles he talked about the imposter syndrome, all of these things that he talked about. It helped save many lives. The reason why people started looking up to fury after he had that meltdown is because of his honesty. And I think honesty I mean like again, where do you draw the line of like you know what's masculine?
Speaker 1:Because these qualities are also, you know, interchangeable. But I think I think that's also part of you realizing that you know um realizing that there are into, I think that's also part of healthy masculinity, that women can have the same quality, that being strong and, you know, being problem solved, like having problem solving, um skills and um being emotionally tough, like not just confining them to men, like these are good qualities and if women have it, then that doesn't make them necessarily a masculine women like I don't know. It just gets all confusing with labels. I can't, like I didn't make any sense there? I don't know you articulate it.
Speaker 2:You spoke well, you're just.
Speaker 2:You're doubting yourself now yeah, but but yeah I think this is a really interesting and nuanced conversation.
Speaker 2:I think someone needs to really do a lot of research on this.
Speaker 2:But based on what the level of thinking I've done about this, I think people get really emotional around this topic, like for a man, if you say they have feminine qualities or they're more feminine, they get really offended and I think we are now trying to change what was once seen as feminine to be masculine. But I'd suggest, like, if you do have those more feminine qualities, if that is just who you are and that's how you operate, you should just be proud of that. I don't think there's there's anything wrong with that, necessarily, unless you're a complete like wet wipe. But again, that's not really feminine qualities, that's just being a complete wet wipe. If you don't stand for anything and things like that, um then it's a problem. But if, if you are emotional, if you do cry, but you can use that in a positive way, just accept that as who you are, don't be like, don't be I don't know, because then when we stigmatize these types of feel like they can't be who they truly are yeah, and they become insecurity.
Speaker 1:And if they have, if they're insecure about the wrong things, if I wear my heart on my sleeve which I do, right and I become insecure about that, that's going to make my life hell. I, I know I'm an emotional person, but I use those emotions to my advantage. I don't go and hate on women like these men do out here on the internet, right like, of course, I, I, we all have been hurt in some shape or form, right. Um, it's just that negative projection. That's where it becomes toxic. That's why we call toxic masculinity.
Speaker 1:Another thing I want to touch on is that, you know, we do need a new culture of where masculinity is seen as a positive thing, and I think women, and as well as men, should be able to differentiate between the two. If a man is, like I say, we are biologically stronger and he's abusing that strength to hit his woman in order for her to act a certain way, that's toxic masculinity, because he's using his masculine nature. Or if he's constantly, let's say, like right by nature, let's say, men are more problem solving based that's what psychology says and you're always trying to solve problems and you can't provide emotional support for your woman and whenever she gets emotional with you, you discard her emotions. You tell her oh, stop being a cry baby. And you just constantly you're not there for her emotionally. Or your boy is going through a tough time, he's going through a depression. You're like you know what, stop being so feminine. How is that helpful? That is toxic.
Speaker 1:If it's not helpful and it's making things worse, right, if it's not helping the situation, it's toxic. That's the definition of toxic. Toxic is toxicity is when something is causing damage, whether it's spiritual, whether it's health, whether it's physical. You know so these qualities, I think, yeah, if not managed, I don't know if these, let's say these naturally masculine qualities, if they are not used appropriately, then you know well, that's what toxic masculinity is yeah, just on the being abusive thing, though I wouldn't call that toxic masculinity.
Speaker 2:I think being abusive should not be like a gendered term, just because men are biologically more capable and stronger and are more likely to do that. I don't think it should be toxic masculinity. That's just a horrible thing that people do. People take advantage of their things and again, branding that as toxic masculinity, I don't even think we should involve masculinity in that anyway. Masculinity in that anyway. I don't think that's masculine at all to do that, to be so out of control with your emotions that you have to take it out on someone who's more vulnerable than you and weaker than you. But that's why we call it toxic.
Speaker 1:Do you get what I'm saying?
Speaker 1:but I think, particular biological advantage that they have right, which is physical strength, and they're abusing that. So you could say that you can. Vice versa, you could look, there could be certain feminine traits in in extreme that can become toxic, so I don't know. But then you are right, it's a double-edged sword, because then people would attack femininity, because if we're attributing that one bad talk, that toxic trait, into masculinity or femininity, then we are like, like I said earlier, like um, then then you know how we want masculinity to be a good thing and appreciate it and femininity to be a good thing and appreciate it. Then it goes against that. So, yeah, you got me questioning myself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think also like it's a bit, it's quite tricky yeah, I think the main things that come with being masculine is like being stoic and controlling your emotions and things like that. And maybe if those things are taken to the extreme, like when it's the stoicism and controlling your emotions, when you're telling people don't cry or don't show your emotions, that could be considered toxic masculinity. But I think beating someone up, I wouldn't regard that as toxic masculinity just because it's got nothing to do with masculinity. Even in the, there's no like positive of even if you're not stronger than someone, you could beat someone up. It's about lashing out at someone, not controlling your emotions. I don't think that is anything to do with masculinity, whether toxic or not. The controlling your emotions things make sense because you're told to control your emotions. So if you're telling someone to not cry, that's the extreme of that. You're never told to like harm someone or hit someone.
Speaker 1:Okay, oh, it's okay. Yeah, the being stronger thing.
Speaker 2:You're extrapolating it from that being strong and being masculine. Yeah, fair enough, but like, harming someone isn't a direct result of just being stronger than someone what about?
Speaker 1:okay, let's take tate's example. He has said that women are stupid, right? He has said that women can't do taxes and they can't think and they don't care about history. Is that toxic?
Speaker 2:masculinity.
Speaker 1:He's calling out women. He said women are dumb, women can't do taxes.
Speaker 2:I don't think so Because, again, there's nothing that comes. Taxes? I don't think so because, again, there's nothing that come. For me, toxic masculinity would be something that's like considered masculine that gets taken to an extreme and becomes negative, but I don't know which masculine trait that would stem from. It's actually quite what would be historically regarded as negative femininity, like gossiping and things like that. That's basically what he's doing. There's no respect or anything.
Speaker 1:It's just it's just misogyny, right, if we call it misogyny, is misogyny a form of toxic masculinity?
Speaker 2:um, maybe it's clearly misogynistic.
Speaker 1:Right if would call that a misogynistic statement. How he is Objectified women. They are my property. If they are earning money as a man, I have right to own what they own. He said by the way, I'm just quoting the guy it is misogyny. But then is misogyny Mutually exclusive or does it overlap? It's a question I wonder. I don't have an answer to it.
Speaker 2:That's interesting, because what about like then the women who are misogynistic, like that Pearl Davis woman and things like? That it's called misandry oh, is that what it's called? Yeah, so no, no I mean women who are misogynistic to other women, not to not like to men uh, okay I don't know that like you know, pearl, that that one youtube who just hates other women or women for some reason yeah, she shames them for like sex before marriage, abortion, um, she shames them for the way they dress.
Speaker 1:She shames them for being independent. She shames feminism completely, even the work culture, like how women want to be financially free.
Speaker 2:She shames them pretty much, yeah I think I think these negative things should not be under the umbrella of masculinity or femininity at all, because it just clouds the positive in that the things that we really want to embrace and push, like these need to be just, in my opinion, regarded as very poor characteristics for human beings. Like any human being can be abusive, any human being can gossip and all this stuff, and they should be looked down upon and really like stigmatized in society. If you're an abusive person, you're a vile person. You need to be dealt with through the law and, like societally, you need to be judged as well. So you know that's not okay and people around you need to know dealt with through the law and like societally, you need to be judged as well. So you know that's not okay and people around you need to know that's not okay.
Speaker 2:If you say it's toxic masculinity, I feel like it almost kind of gives it an excuse. Oh, that's just in his nature. Do you know what I mean? It's like blame it on masculinity and all of this the fact he's a man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, where it's the individual that needs to be held accountable.
Speaker 1:in my opinion, but then how do you? Okay, if there is a predominantly a negative trait in other? For example, you know, you look at the men like the Taliban, and how they're oppressing women, or let's say, there's probably women groups that just hate on men. Any man is trash. How then do we deal with those issues? Like, how do we, like you said, yes, call them a bad trait, but then when, okay, a kid is growing up, how do you tell them what does it mean to be a man or a woman? Do you see what I mean? Like, how do they get to understand these concepts? How do we help them understand what? What does it mean to be a man?
Speaker 2:um, I think again, you can just enforce the positives and tell them what masculinity is without having to bring in the oh and then. These things are toxic masculinity, especially when the things aren't like masculine at all, like like the emotional thing. I really get about it being toxic masculinity if you're constantly telling people to suppress their emotions and not be vulnerable, because that does come from the what is generally regarded as a masculine trait of being stoic and not showing emotions. But most of these bad things maybe it's our culture, the culture we've grown up in, is just like being a good person, being respectful, being honorable these were seen as the masculine things like being aggressive and things like that. We were, I don't know. I was never taught that that's a masculine thing to do. I was taught the opposite the control you might have, the aggression, but controlling it is a very masculine thing to do. Being a good person is very masculine thing to do. Being a good person is a masculine to do thing to do. Being respectful, especially to your elders, is a masculine thing to do. Taking care of people who are more vulnerable than you is a masculine thing to do.
Speaker 2:So then for me, like all these negative things that have nothing to do with those characteristics that aren't like those things taken in extreme. That's got nothing to do with masculinity. And I don't like those things taken in extreme. That's got nothing to do with masculinity. And I don't want it to have anything to do with masculinity because I all I see it as people almost using an excuse, almost oh, it's just the nature, it's just toxic masculinity. No, it's just bad, shitty people that need to be held accountable and for them, it's just the way they've been raised and grown up like. These things have nothing to do with masculinity yeah, it's.
Speaker 1:It leads to those generalization oversimplifications that we mean. You're very careful when it comes to politics to avoid, for example, like how you know muslims are associated with terrorists and how jews are. Every jew is considered like a scientist or, I don't know, like idf. Pretty much, um, it's same thing can happen in this case, like these umbrella terms. You know it's a lazy way of understanding the world and yeah and it's just a conversation.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, I would love to know whether misogyny is under the umbrella of toxic masculinity. And what does it truly mean to be a man? You know it's. I think the young men are lost. You know young men are lost, and so women, by the way. They're both struggling. We both are struggling. Man, it's not even like it's a man's world, it's a woman's world. We both are going through Extremely Tough challenges and we're projecting Our insecurities and hurting each other. There's a lack of communication, lack of, I guess, empathy, and it's Both of us Are to blame for it. It's not solely A man's problem, it's also I don't want to say it's also women's fault, but it is, it's both of our fault, you know, and we have to do better. Both of us have to do better in order to decrease that bridge of um misunderstandings.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, exactly everyone's a donut, to be honest, at the end of the day, like when we look at ourselves in the mirror. Everyone should see a little bit of donut when they look in the mirror, because we all do dumb things, we all do stupid things, we all say stupid things, and to think we don't is just incredibly, um, arrogant. Uh. So to just put it as that this one group is responsible for the problems of the world or that one group is responsible from the problems of the world, whichever group that might be, if you, if you're misogynist, you'll say that that's women. If you hate men, you'll say, oh, it's men are to blame for everything. If you're anti-semitic, you'll say it's jewish people. If you're islamophobic, you'll say it's muslims. And that is never the case.
Speaker 2:Everyone can do better and everyone should do better. We're all at fault for little things in our life. We can all do a little bit better. So I think the first step is just to look inwards and reflect on how you can become a better person because, like we're living in such divisive times when everyone hates someone else, there's some group that people are targeting and they're saying they're responsible. And maybe that's what it was like throughout history. There's always been scapegoats and things like that. But in this era of information, um, we should be better than that. But to be fair, it's also an era of misinformation like with this information, yeah, for example, the lebanon thing that has recently happened with the pagers getting blown up.
Speaker 2:No one's got any idea what actually happened. I've seen 50 different reports that are saying israel hacked into a hezbollah network and blew up the pagers. And I've seen 50 other reports saying they infiltrated the supply line and planted explosives, uh, in the pages and blew them up that way.
Speaker 2:I've got no idea, which is actually true at this point, maybe more information will come out in the future, but and regardless, by the way, I do want to touch on that because that is such a by the way, I do want to touch on that because that is such a dangerous thing to do and people are regarding it as such a like intelligence triumph that israel managed to do this, because they're saying, oh, these were just for hezbollah. Only hezbollah used them. Bro, these things change hands. Do you not think a hezbollah member would maybe lose their pager and someone else would pick it up? Or, like we saw countless times, they'd be at the shopping mall, they'd be with their family, little kids who are innocent.
Speaker 2:A nine-year-old girl lost her life and you've got people on twitter celebrating it and being like, oh, this is an amazing day and they're laughing and celebrating. Bro, these people, these people are horrible human beings. I'm not gonna lie, after these reports came out of health care workers getting killed and a nine-year-old girl getting killed and all they can do is laugh and things like that. It's it's truly horrible and again, we say this every video. But this is not about jews. It's not that it's just jews doing this. There's a lot of people who aren't jewish that are saying these kind of things and there are a lot of people who are jewish who are against these types of things, these atrocities committed by israel. So it's really it's a hateful.
Speaker 1:it's a hateful world right now where it feels like that, especially online, that there is a group out there that's just hating on another group and you, you and I think I wanted to touch on another thing is that there's also self-hate, a lot of self-hate too. I think humans really struggle to like themselves and that's a big, big problem, man. It's a big, big problem because I feel, like you said, you need to work inward right, like it's that inner spiritual battle that we must win. Um, and of course, if, if we were spiritually secure and we were we worked on the internal, then these, we won't be projecting this hate anger.
Speaker 1:You know ignorance will not take over, but how on earth, in the world of misinformation, do we tell people that? That you are getting manipulated, you're getting played around, you know and not jumping to conclusion, for example, like you don't have much information about the situation, you can put your hand up. I don't know much about the situation. A lot of people are hurt, and rightfully so, right, but they will believe the wrong things because they hurt Right, whether it's innocent Jewish people or innocent Muslims, they will believe and that slowly they become corrupted because of that anger in their heart, and how do we save people from that?
Speaker 2:Is my question.
Speaker 1:It's such a I don't know man, especially in the world of misinformation, because if you tell someone, guys, you know, let's work towards peace, let's not, like, demonize sides, you know, let's be anti-war, let's be against all of this, like I put out that statement and then everyone was calling me neutral for some odd reason. I'm like, if I'm anti-war, I'm pro-peace, if I'm pro-peace, I'm pro-Palestine and I'm pro those innocent Jewish people who got nothing with this war. Do you get what I'm saying? So he said how do you help people understand that In this?
Speaker 2:radicalized world. But to be fair On social media, it is difficult Because your statement Was just a written statement on Instagram.
Speaker 1:It's very hard for people to Understand what's truly going on in your brain and what you truly mean when it's just because you, you, you would go and seek further understanding, you would ask a different question, like you said, with the lebanon situation. You don't have much information, you don't know, you put your hands up.
Speaker 1:These people jump into conclusions right, but my situation is not that drastic because it's not in no innocent lives on the line. I don't care if people misunderstand me, right, because I know my intentions are pure and a lot of people that wanna that I've got their right in mind in the right place. They know what I mean, right? They know I'm anti-war and I'll always be anti-war, no matter what the group of people is, no matter who's oppressing and who's being oppressed. I'm always going to be anti-war. But if it is the online thing, then that's very dangerous. Then how do we change the online world? Right? This is a fundamental question we all must ask and especially challenge these online platforms, these social media platforms. How do we work around this that these people are not seeing headlines and boom, jumping to conclusions because, on the most extreme end it has, it can lead to genocides.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly yeah, yeah, I don't know what happened with the whole edl thing, man tate and all these guys who jumped into conclusion, nigel farage and, uh, tommy robinson, they jump into conclusions, right?
Speaker 2:yeah, you saw the consequences of that yeah, and and people creating their own narratives. I think a fundamental cause of this is that thing that adam I think it was adam grant told us that I'm not biased, bias, that every single person thinks I'm not biased but everyone else is. But really it's. When you do that reflection, that inward reflection we spoke about, you realize okay, I do have certain biases because I've grown up a certain way. I have certain friends, I've understood the world a certain way. I will definitely have a particular bias to particular things in. In most things I'm opinionated on. In some things you might have a little tiny bias that doesn't really creep in. But once you understand you have a bias, you see things in different way. You can actively go and research the other side and challenge your bias. But if you're in this mindset, I'm not biased. I just know what's right, I know what's going on. Everyone else is biased but I'm the only guy in this world who's in the middle ground, who's fair.
Speaker 2:Workers getting killed in the attack on lebanon. People like why would they even use pagers? Is it the 1900s or something like that, not knowing that the nhs in the uk uses 130 000 pages at the moment. It's not just lebanon and has has bullet in lebanon that uses pages. The first of all country, one of the most advanced countries in the world, uses these pages.
Speaker 2:But this these people who are saying this on social media is a widespread narrative couldn't do a single google search to just challenge their bias a little bit. If they knew, oh, I have a bias, they would have done that. But because they're like, nah, I'm just right on this issue, I'm fair and balanced minded, they just go with the first thing that comes into their brain. And everyone knows at this point about confirmation, bias and all these types of things. So it's really frustrating to see people still do this in this age that we have this, so much access to this information and so much work done through psychology to help us understand our brains and just help us understand how important, like bias, bias is. Because I think adam said that, like it's usually the people with lower iqs who have this I'm not biased bias if you ever hear someone say I'm not biased or I don't have a bias, I don't have any biases, it's a major red flag 100.
Speaker 1:You spoke like a true philosopher and I was watching this video by robert green. It was like the most evil that is done by people, stupid people that are so certain and what they believe. They think they have all the answers. You see other side and they're very, and that's how they become extreme in their ideologies. And, like I said, you spoke like a true philosopher.
Speaker 1:Socrates says the only thing I know for certain is I know nothing. What he's really trying to, where he's really trying to say, is be humble, have some humility, have some humility. And man, you said it perfectly, that's what's left. I have to do a bit of humility, though I'm definitely not a philosopherj earlier. He is human. That's why he's a great role model. You know, when he got through, he put his heart on his. You know his heart on his sleeve. We saw with fury after what he went through and this is why I really admire bosses and they're a great example of just great human beings, not just healthy masculinity. Um, you know most of the time and yeah, I think I think you said it perfectly that this, this certainty't revolve around you, that you don't have all the answers. You know, when the social media is just making people more entitled because they got everything at the tip of their finger.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's another concept called availability bias. It's in a book called thinking fast and slow. Uh, his name is daniel canning yes, canningham and he says that you know, we have this availability bias and, based on the information that's available to us, we create realizing that what's available to us is not complete right.
Speaker 2:And I think that's not necessarily like. Oh, there is no hope.
Speaker 1:I think that actually leads to problems. It's a very good problem-solving-based approach Because you know, you're trying to understand nuance, you're trying to understand individual, you're trying to understand the context, you're trying to understand humans, and then that and understanding and national, international relationships, letting go of the hate, greed, jealousy, anger, that's how we have persevered to these tough, tough wars, because if they didn't do that, we would wipe ourselves out yeah, exactly, yeah, progress exactly.
Speaker 2:And that's, uh, the thing you said. There is very similar to plato's cave scenario as well, where he says that most of us human beings just see things through shadows, so we don't see things fully as they are, because we're in this little cave which is made up of our own surroundings and the way we brought up and everything. And he said, like it's up to us to escape the cave. And once we do escape the cave, we need to help the people in the cave realize the like true light and help them understand, like, what the shadows and everything like that really mean. But he also then said that those people won't believe you, they'll call you crazy, because they're saying, no, I see it, I see the shadow, I can see what they are.
Speaker 2:Stop watching and telling me, it's something different even though this guy has available to them, so they think that's just all it is, whereas the other guy has more information available. He's just he's getting regarded as an idiot, yeah it's a fascinating paradox.
Speaker 1:And also, if he's preaching you know, alan Grant calls him the preacher you know, if he's preaching and he's not empathetic with the situation and he comes across as, know, jesus, moses, uh, um, muhammad, they have been all of them. Um, they have, you know, people murdered. They make severe mistakes and they have to be forgiven and they have to be gentle and not be like, oh, I know more than you and so I'm gonna just, you know, enforce my will on you. They didn't enforce their will and that's why they brought up so much great change and so much great humanity into this world. And I think again that humility is lacking, man, and I feel like that's. We need a new movement. We need a movement of, you know, love.
Speaker 1:We need a movement of peace, forgiveness and going back to the fundamentals, going to teach people humility I think the education system is like you said churning out employees, you know, and then you got people like these alpha males and red bill, like andrew jayton, other toxic guys online. They're just like saying oh, make money and all your problems are solved. I think we have to start with the fundamentals and the basics. I think, instead of helping people become more secure in themselves, understanding themselves better understanding other people, better understanding their own weaknesses, teaching them humility, teaching them curiosity, I think if we teach them the fundamentals, they can deal with world's problems.
Speaker 1:And I feel like that spiritual education, that true education, is lacking and we are very lucky, we are very lucky that you know we've been brought up well, but not not a lot of people are in. I think if anyone's who's watching this, who's got their heart at a good place, avoid, avoid the judgmental approach. Sometimes, at times, people like us can feel like we're better than everyone. No, we're just lucky that we are brought up in a great way. Right, we got lucky with our you know, they've had very, they've had circumstances. If you were in those circumstances, you would be like them. So I think having that empathetic approach is extremely important to people who do know better, who are not ignorant, because if you have the superiority complex because you know more, like you know again, we end up you're just as bad as they ignore it, because you're also ignorant to their suffering yeah, yeah, as human beings, we are no better than any other human being, and that's the fundamental thing we need to understand.
Speaker 2:Just because you have access to more information, you might have more knowledge, you might be more, you might have been growing up in the way where you've got more of a tendency towards being empathetic does not mean you're a better person intrinsically than another human being just because they don't have access to those things. Obviously, if someone's a murderer and all those bad things, then they're a horrible person. Maybe they're a better person than them. But just just because you're more intelligent or you have more money or you've had more opportunities in life doesn't make you better than someone else. Like um, elevate me above to you.
Speaker 2:Uh, all of us are on the same level. We're all human beings and we need to treat each other in that way. I think we need to see ourselves in other people as much as possible, because I think that's the best way for us to feel empathy towards other people. I think that's where we can truly like ascribe human rights to other people, because if you say to someone, would you be okay if someone did this to you? And you say, no, you should not want that done to anyone else as well. I see too, it's disgusting, but if it happens to another person, they turn a blind eye or they'll even be okay with it. And I think, yeah, we need to be just really aware of that, because everyone does it, because everyone is slightly selfish and it might be just little things that you do it in, but you don't need to be aware of it. And uh, going back to, I hope he gets the respect he deserves eventually because he has done a. He doesn't duck fights, he's challenged himself time and time again in that bravery.
Speaker 1:You know that's true success in my eyes and true greatness in my eyes, that he had everything to lose. He doesn't have to fight these killers like Usyk and Dubois. And you know he could have chosen easy fights or just wait for the big paydays, but no, he challenged in our lives, strive to take those risks and day for greatness. And, yeah, I'm incredibly blessed that we are exposed to such role models and I love boxing man selling my t-shirt. Boxing is love because you learn so much about life through boxing and just watching these incredible, incredibly brave people. And, yeah, and I'm very proud of Wally too, because he's done, he's taken that walk and won his fight whilst having.
Speaker 2:Would you like? Maybe we'll go into that another time. It's a big plot twist. I'll be honest.
Speaker 1:And I'm very proud of you, wally, as well, that you've gone through a lot of tough times in your life, but you're a strong metapillot, not in a negative way. You don't show facade when you have been going through challenging times, you don't lie about it, and that's what inspires me to be a good human being, and I think we should start from there. You know, teach the young kids and, like marcus says that you know it's. We don't need to be a human being, we just need to act that way. So we all know. But it's like educating people and helping them on that journey through empathy. So, yeah, I'm gonna round it up there. What have you got anything else to say? Yeah, no, I think that was.
Speaker 2:That was great. We need to us to.
Speaker 1:We need to show these characteristics ourselves if we want other people to mean nothing, if we don't show it to behind the cameras and nothing's going to inspire. The reason why, again, we go back to AJ and all these people. I was called a quitter, by the way, after he lost to Sean Joyce. Can we just talk about this? That guy was called a quitter Throughout his years. He never, although yes, he had blips and setbacks.
Speaker 1:If we say all of these good things and the right things but then we act a different way and we treat people around us in a horrible way, then it's virtue signaling and there's a lot of that online as well and again we end up at the same spot. So, whether you're 100 right, you know leading through actions, and again it avoids that preacher approach. The best way to inspire people is through actions. And again, like as you did with the reason rematch, even if he had lost, but just the fact that you can always inspire people. You can always, no matter how badly you mess up, that journey, that story of yours, that rock bottom can become a source of inspiration to others. And I try to remind myself of that all the time. And that helps me not fear failures, because I'm like I'm going to have a good story to tell that's going to help people.
Speaker 2:No-transcript responsible and think he's a really bad person for that because emotions are running really high. He just said something stupid, made a mistake, but it would have been great if he, like aj, came out and said like oh yeah, no, that was just, emotions are running high as stupid, exactly, we must be patient.
Speaker 1:And because they just went through a war, yeah, exactly, they just went through a war. And in those moments, yes, you can hold people accountable, but don't demonize them, don't cancel them, don't hate them, don't post, go out your way and post horrible memes on them. That's just not the way. You mentioned that at the start of the thing.
Speaker 2:I don't want to do this too long, but those people are genuinely just losers like putting someone down just for a few likes and stuff on instagram or twitter or whatever.
Speaker 1:It's just horrible like fair enough, never understand that they're not happy with their life and they will not challenge themselves. So again, understanding helps you and that's why people like aj and usik and fury whoever they are, when they get, when people try to humiliate them.
Speaker 2:They have this understanding that, yeah, and the words from these people mean nothing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, of course, sometimes they might hurt them, but again they understand where it comes from.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and for those people you need to understand your to put someone down just to make yourself feel a little bit better.
Speaker 1:It's really you'll never bring it up. It's like how can bringing another person down in the moment you might make you feel better because you gotta laugh out of it, but it doesn't make you a world champion, it doesn't make you help you become a better person it doesn't help.
Speaker 2:Let's say, if aj went bankrupt or food went bankrupt, it's just between you and your friend, like I feel like that. That is fine. But if you imagine actively going out thinking I want everyone to see this, I want everyone to join in this, it's not like in the moment, laugh with your friends type of thing, because I'm, I'm not, I don't want to be like a killer until you can't have fun with your friends and make a laugh. But you know, if you put out in public there's a chance that the person who's been through that is going to see that and like other people.
